Shooting The Unarmed Man – The Fallacy Of Modern Perception


“He shot an unarmed man!”

“He wasn’t armed! Police had no reason to shoot him!”

How often have we heard those screams from an angry community?  Trayvon Martin may be the first to come mind but it happens more often than most people think.  Kansas City firefighter Anthony Bruno, unarmed and drunk, was shot and killed by an off duty police officer.  And, of course, the most recent case of Michael Brown in St. Louis, Missouri.

The problem with the public outcry and the rioting in pursuit of “JUSTICE” is that most people know exactly nothing about physical combat and life threatening situations.  They assume that if a person is unarmed that deadly force cannot and should not be employed.  And they are wrong.

Have you seen the viral videos of “the knockout game?”  Many of those videos involve one solid blow to the head that results in an unconscious victim.  There is laughing and yelling and everyone runs away.  Well, what if they didn’t want to stop there?  What if the attacker decided that he would just kill someone today?  He now has an unconscious, helpless victim to beat to death.

Take the case of Michael Fobbs as an example.  He walked up to a man sitting on a bench and simply started hitting him repeatedly until the man was dead at an Amtrak station in Texas.  Would that victim have been authorized the use of deadly force? Fobbs was unarmed.


Bear in mind that more people were beaten to death with hands and feet than were killed by so-called assault rifles in 2012.  Those victims were not allowed to use deadly force simply because their attacker did not have a weapon?  I think not.  Laws on self defense seldom mention the use of a weapon.  They are based on a reasonable fear that your life is in jeopardy, not the presence of a weapon in the hands of your attacker.

You may have missed the television programs on the science of fighting.  In that series, Randy Couture was studied.  In his well-known “ground and pound” method of dispatching an opponent, Couture was able to generate over 2,000 pounds of force in his downward blows to an opponent’s head.  That’s the equivalent of dropping a car on your face.  Trained fighters seldom take the full force of those blows because they are moving and defending with their own arms and hands but what if the victim was not a trained fighter?  Couture, and any other trained fighter, could kill you with just a couple of blows to the head.

The rise in popularity of Brazilian Jiu Jitsu and MMA style sports has also added new weapons to the attacker’s hands-only arsenal.  Have you ever been choked out?  In MMA sports, the defender can “tap out” or the referee can end the fight and pull the attacker off of you.  In the real world, you will be choked until you die.  That’s a real fight.

So, if your attacker is unarmed and gets you in a choke, is that it? You’re just going to let yourself die because you won’t use lethal force against an unarmed opponent?  How about if you are on your back being hammered in the face and you are moments away from losing consciousness and eventual death?  Just going to accept your fate?  I seriously doubt that.

I’m not.  If I’m armed, I’m going to kill you.  Dead.

If a cop walks up to someone out of the blue, draws his pistol, and shoots them dead in the street, that’s one thing.  But, shooting an unarmed assailant during a fight in the street is another.  You do not know the intentions of the attacker and cannot allow yourself to be overpowered or knocked unconscious.  You will only be another statistic.

You also have no idea if your attacker IS armed and they just haven’t used their weapon yet.  You can’t wait until you are unable to defend yourself to find out.  I suspect most of you reading this would not.  So, why are we judging a police officer who makes the same decision you would make under the same circumstances?

Get a reality check, folks.


373 thoughts on “Shooting The Unarmed Man – The Fallacy Of Modern Perception

  1. The problem isn’t that we’re all stupid and think police don’t know what they’re doing. The problem is that an unarmed person 20 feet away from a police officer with his gun trained on him need not be summarily executed because he makes a wrong move. Why MUST someone die if they rush an officer when unarmed? Police in other countries shoot them in the legs. Here in America, its shoot to kill. I don’t want that to happen to me if I find myself with guns trained on me and my hands up and some cop doesn’t like how I move and shoots me, and then all the other cops unload their magazines on me, all out of a misunderstanding. Being stopped by the police shouldn’t be a potential death sentence even if you’re unarmed.

    • Why would you run up on an officer when you have a gun pointed at you? Even walking up can be a serious risk that is why they want you to go prone. You need to read the article again it does explain what you asked and then learn why by talking to instructors or training videos.

    • Sounds like you need a night out with your hero, T.J.Hooker. T.V. Isn’t real life. Law Enforcement are trained to stop the threat, not shoot to kill. What other intent would someone rush a cop, other than to hurt or kill him ? Wake the fuck up !!

    • Shooting someone in the leg as they are walking/running at you is hard. Police are trained to shoot center mass as that is the biggest target. If your in a situation where a police officer has a weapon drawn on you just follow the commands and you should be fine. If you feel like the police are out of line with how/why they are dealing with you deal with that after the situation is over.

      • if you are a trained shooter you do not need 10 rounds to stop someone besides are cops not trained to protect themselves with their hands and feet ….dont they train in self defense. Shooting someone to death is the last resort not the first. Sounds like this officer panicked and went off shooting round after round. So much for police training. Most cops i have encountered are uneducated pricks that label and profile people of color. I know its a by product of their job to assume the worse but many use their badge and gun as a way to impose some sort of power they think they have. I dont think they deserve any more respect than the next man because any idiot can elect not to get a formal education and become a cop…..

      • A couple things to add. If you are right handed, the trigger pull and firing of the weapon will pull left, vice versa if right handed. Forensics shows Brown was struck on his left side, meaning he was rushing the officer. The officer was no doubt by training trying to hold to center mass- one…suffering his own blows to his head, possibly fractured orbital skeletal damage to one eye, some level of disorientation…knowing his duty to stop the individual from leaving the scene, then stopping the threat; shooting at a running target with arms and head bob and weaving. The shots at the top of the head with forensics suggest last “killing” shots, the threat falling forward.

        The 21′ rule has frequently demonstrated in training, it takes less than three seconds for the assailant to be on top of you. You can never know if the individual has a knife, and I just recently saw the most gruesome pictures of the damage a knife attack can wield. Shots pulled left striking the arm does not stop the threat, and Brown on adrenaline and intent was not going to stop. It took firing the weapon as many times as it was to “stop the threat”…

        I myself, have been thru this training…

      • @Brad If you’ve never fired a handgun you should. They are only really accurate for an average trained shooter up to about 3 meters or around 10 feet. An expert marksman can go farther out but people that good are rare. You can easily be 6″ off in either direction with each shot (is completely miss a leg or a headshot). Also ribs can deflect 9mm rounds so a chest shot doesn’t always work.

    • NoGuff, you are one of those tards that makes comments before you get the fatcs….Do some research before you waste my time again tard.

    • As a past NATO Counter-terrorism Program Manager I had the following police agencies working with me on a daily basis: British Police, Marechaussee, Gemeente Politie, Gendarmerie, Surete, Landespolizei, Carabinieri and several others. Not one of these agencies or officers was ever told to shoot someone in the legs – if deadly force was authorized, they were taught to shoot to kill. Please tell us what police agency outside the US you are referring to and where you came by the information that it is required to shoot at the legs? Maybe I am wrong – is why I am asking… Thanks

      • John, I shared the Coburg Kasserne with a company of the German Bundesgrenzeshutz a couple of border tours in the mid 80’s. Their commander demonstrated firing a MP5 in short bursts into arms or legs of hostile targets. He stated that the BGS trained for peripheral hits as a matter of policy. He said it had to do with their charter. I have no idea if that is still the case or not, but he was training his company to that standard. What the Zoll or Polizei do, I have no idea from then or now but I never much liked the idea of a burst of 9mm aimed at a shirt sleeve with attendant overpenetration and misses skipping merrily on their way.

      • Add Canada to that list, officers are trained to shoot to kill. This is real life and my brothers in Blue want to go home to their families each and every day!!!

      • Victor…”protocol” to shoot arms and legs…(as you mention “border tours”) was likely for the strategical purposes not to eliminate the target but require that one or two other of his comrades would be withdrawing from the fight to assist the one shot. That then effectively takes out three individuals. What they found, interestingly enough with extremist insurgents, is quite often the one shot does not get assistance, but is left or wired with explosives for whomever of the attacking side might check the body. For this reason (from what I read) many forces taking out insurgents are now using higher caliber ammo to assure a hit is permanent.

        In defense courses…you are not taught to shoot to kill. You are taught to shoot to “stop the threat”…the whole purpose of self defense.

      • I would posit that were you to ask any of these agencies staff if their shot placement was intended to kill, they would reply NO for at least two reasons. The first being very likely the advice from their own Attorneys, in that an intent to kill clearly defines premeditation to murder. The second reason being the moral dilemma of the guilt experienced afterwards if an attacker does die. Thus, the accepted intent of a centred placement is actually to merely stop the activity of the target, whether that be an attack on the shooter, or another person. The sole reason anyone should shoot with the intent to actually kill, with for example a head shot, is when faced with a suicide bomber, when instant central nervous system shut-down is recommended, such as when British Police dispatched a person suspected of carrying a backpack device.

        As we recommended in our book, ‘Conditioned Victim?’ If ever asked -in court by a prosecutor following a successful defense where an attacker dies- “Did you fire with the intent to kill?” The answer must always be “No your worship, I fired solely to stop the attack, I deeply regret this death”. (Whether or not you actually do is really your own problem, no one else’s).

      • i haven’t heard anyone say anything about the policeman’s eyesight being off (or blurred) or about him being dizzy after having been punched in the face by brown. that was my first thought about the number of shots. it makes sense to me. thank god he had enough time to deliver the shots to the head. brown was a mountain of a man, and there’s no doubt he would have inflicted a lot of pain on the officer, if not killed him. i believe he intended to kill him. he tried to get the officer’s gun in the car. i heard one commentator say it fit the pattern that brown might have been on pcp. the full toxicology report is not out yet. it is true that officers are trained to shoot to kill. if the officer hadn’t landed those shots to brown’s head, i think the officer would have been mortally wounded. i also think that had that happened, the aftermath in ferguson would have been the same as it was. obama has eradicated 50 years of the good, hard work dr. martin luther king, jr. worked so hard to instill in this country. and he sent holder out there to throw gas on the fire.

      • Marty….so this cop is not trained to defend himself ? Sounds like he needs to work on his stand up game and practice his aim. How big was Darren Wilson? Was he 5’2” 135??/ If so then he had no chance and he probably feared for his life. I see that he was 28 so he was not old…he looks like he is of good size ..certainly enough to defend himself. Brown was a big dude but Wilson was not a small guy that should be overwhelmed that easy if he was well trained. Sounds like he was not and was whimp of a man.

      • Brad, they were the same height, Wilson is 210 lbs., Btown was 290 lbs. So he had 80 lbs on Wilson, but Wilson looks pretty fit to me and Brown looked like a fatbody.

    • Actually, it’s not shoot to kill. It’s centre of mass, aka. the largest target possible to ensure a hit on the intended target and not the little old lady 2 blocks away tucking her grandkids into bed. What countries have officers, or soldier shoot for extremities? Because in America, Canada, Mexico, and most of Europe they have a pretty clear “centre of mass” protocol.

      • Marty…I grew up with a father that was a police officer. A midwest town that didn’t have back then a whole lot of shootings…or crime, but it was growing. I remember an incident well where a big guy in a bar, apparently on something…had one officer down (cracked a bar stool over his head), was wrestling and beating another officer. He was already shot IN THE UPPER CHEST AREA four times. This was back in the K-frame .38 special days.

        My father drew his weapon, releasing the officer he turned toward my father and my father stopped the threat. The man went to the hospital…and survived. Shot five times. Shot…yet able to seriously hurt two officers.

        Having gone thru the training myself…it is about “stopping the threat”…and though it may sound like semantics, “shoot the kill” or “stop the threat”…from the standpoint of a legal investigation that follows, the shooter will be grilled by lawyers on that finer point. “Did you shoot to kill?” raises speculation on motives, and drags out a whole lengthy trial where defense/prosecution find loop holes. However…shooting to “stop the threat”…removes the question of any other motive. One feels threatened for one’s very life, the life of others. Period. This threat must be put down. Stopped. Yes…center mass will hit vital organs. But really intent…makes the semantics of this most important

    • A large reason why people who are legally allowed to own and use firearms shoot to kill is because shooting to wound opens you up to really big law suits. With the way our justice system works, anyone can sue anyone else for anything… Did you know at one point in time, if I was injured while breaking into your home that I could sue you or your home owners insurance for it? It happened. In some states, if I walk on to your lawn and hurt myself, I can now sue you. Our police across the country have to put their lives on the line quite often. They have to protect us and themselves from street thugs, gang bangers murders, thieves and sometimes really crazy people who are just bent on causing someone else major bodily harm. Yes police brutality is and has been a problem for years. It is yet to be seen whether or not Michael Brown was justly fired upon. No evidence has been released. Trayvon Martin was justly fired upon because he was causing severe bodily harm to Zimmerman (this is not to say Zimmerman was totally innocent, he was not but that’s another story). Eric Garner was wrongfully killed by the NYCPD. They knowingly used an illegal choke hold. A move that was made illegal for that very reason. The homeless man in AZ was wrongfully fired upon and killed. The hispanic man who was burned to death after a CA swat team tossed a flash/bang grenade into his home which ignited the home was wrongfully killed. The black man that was killed just 4 miles from Michael Brown was justly fired upon. After robbing a store, he was approached by officers. He had a knife in his hand and he began to advance on the officers in a threatening manor cursing and screaming. The officers ordered to drop the knife. He didn’t and was killed.
      If you find yourself in a situation where a police officer(s) are pointing a gun at you, do what they tell you to do and you will not get shot! Even if you think the cop is wrongfully detaining or pulling you over, treat him/her with some respect and lodge a formal complaint once the situation is done and over with. The cops are not just out to shoot someone. At least the majority are not. I agree that some way over step their bounds because they think they are “billy bad @$$ but most are not. In just about all things in life, you get what you give. You want respect, you must give respect.

    • NoGuff needs an education on the Teuller Rule. And please inform me in what country do they teach the police to shoot them in the legs, or use a taser in the face of lethal force?

    • you obviously aren’t aware of all the facts – you’ve only been listening to the liberal media. The “victim” here had already been approached by the officer – in a peaceful manner – but walked away. When the officer called to him (again), he turned around and PUT HIS HEAD DOWN and charged the officer like a bull. DUH. Are you aware of the officer’s injuries? He didn’t get them by tripping over his shoelaces… Also, the media – just as in the Travon Martin case – only shows the “child’s” 14-year-old pictures. In this case, the “child” was over 6’3″ tall and weighed over 300 lbs! And he was angry! T-H-I-N-K!!!!! ACT!!! The police officer did what he has been trained to do when his life is in danger. And, police in other countries – England excepted, because they’re no longer armed EXCEPT IN ‘BAD’ NEIGHBORHOODS(!!) – they don’t aim for the legs. Where’d you get THAT info???
      In Colorado, you’re not allowed to “shoot to injure”. That’s right. What’s left unsaid by that law is, you HAVE to shoot to kill —— or be killed.
      If you don’t want what happened to happen to you, then I suggest 1. you obey the law (don’t rob stores while physically assaulting the storekeeper) 2. you obey a police officer’s commands 3. you don’t charge like a bull at a police officer (especially if you’re over 6″ taller and 100# heavier, and angry).

      • ….so this cop is not trained to defend himself ? Sounds like he needs to work on his stand up game and practice his aim. How big was Darren Wilson? Was he 5’2” 135??/ If so then he had no chance and he probably feared for his life….but I see that he was 28 so he was not old…he looks like he is of good size ..certainly enough to defend himself. Brown was a big dude but Wilson was not a small guy that should be overwhelmed that easy if he was well trained. Sounds like he was not and was whimp of a man.

      • Brad is right. Police officers should get into prolonged, Street Fighter-esque fist-fights with violent offenders instead of shooting people. In fact, we should just take away guns from the police, and give them rape-whistles, instead.

      • Sure, came peacefully, but walked away? were there not shots fired in the vehicle as stated in the legal release after the inquiry? 6’3 300. fat, not fit. look at his recent pics. I’m over 6′ 240 at my heaviest – and I was fat. he’s got 60 lbs more fat than I… Not likely he doubled over in pain? He did have powder all over. that happens when shot close as well as going for gun / fire as claimed. the evidence backs either story.

        So – he willingly waked to the cruiser – was afraid to get caught on petty theft charges as he handed off the cigars – so assaulted an officer in his car? Does that make sense? The officer didn’t fly off the handle for him cussing him out for getting called on jaywalking in a suburb? You walk to the end of the block and double back?

    • Shoot to stop the threat (most likely center mass). Also, if a police officer is knocked unconscious, the weapons on his belt become available to the assailant… thus becoming an even more dangerous threat.

    • Well NoGuff…. it’s not that you’re stupid, you’re a SPECIAL kind of stupid. You can’t grasp the concept can you? You’ve watched a lot of CSI, CHIPS, and Hill Street Blues so you know exactly how it should be done. I’m also betting you’ve never been in a fist fight on the playground, much less a fight for survival. Now let’s examine what exactly the term “fight for survival” might mean…. The difference between kissing your wife in the morning when you walk in the door and your wife meeting two Supervisors at the door you would have walked through only to hear the dreaded speech every loved one fears. The difference between holding your newborn child and some day that child holding all they’ve ever known of you, a picture in a picture frame. The difference in playing in the yard with your grandchildren and your grandchildren standing at a gravesite watching their parents weep. What we do is real and forever. Each and everyone of have our own reasons for doing the job, and most of those reasons started out with helping others. I’ve met no one yet who chose this profession because they wanted to be someone’s punching bag, pin cushion, or target practice. My mission has always been to assist as many as I can, but always with the responsibility to my wife to see our family raised which hopefully includes great grandchildren. So what this means for you or anyone else who has other ideas for me or my Brothers and Sisters on my watch…it’s going to be centermass until there no more threat. If that’s a double tap or multiple double taps, we’re going home in the same condition or better than what we were the last our loved ones saw us. I hope you enjoy your fantasy life, I’ll be right here in the real world…

      • If you’re so scared of dying on the job that you have to shoot unarmed citizens, maybe you should get a different job

    • You hit the nail on the head, and it seems those commenting below don’t quite understand. This story talks about defending yourself in close range combat situations and yes, I agree with it completely. But that is not what is happening on the streets. Like you said, NoGuff, the police are shooting unarmed victims who are 15 or more feet away and have not posed a threat serious enough to which opening fire is an appropriate response. It seems many officers are not as balsy as they’d like everyone to believe. They fear being attacked and have taken on a kill or be killed approach to law enforcement even when they’re not faced with a credible threat. They’re acting out of fear, and that is not an acceptable behavior for a law enforcement officer.

      • Sheldon, Google the “21 foot rule.” A trained attacker within 15 feet could easily stab an officer dead without warning. It’s science. In the Mike Brown case, when a large, angry man is charging headfirst at a police officer who is about to arrest him for theft, is that not a credible enough threat? What exactly IS a credible threat, in your opinion? I can agree with you that LEOs are generally acting out of fear when they kill someone. They fear for their own lives, and for the public’s safety. That’s kind of the point of using deadly force. Show me an officer who isn’t afraid for their lives at least a little bit, especially when working in a rough area, and I’ll show you either a mentally ill or suicidally complacent statistic.

    • I have two problems with your comments. 1st, if the police or any other person shoots anyone anywhere other than center-of-mass; he is saying I don’t care if I miss and hit an innocent, this felons life is more important than that innocents life. 2nd, What foreign countries have you been in? Most of them I have been in if you attack the police, you get lit up with a sub-machine gun.

    • NoGuff, I guess your not familiar with the Tueller Drill, its been the standard since the early 1980’s. It will answer/counter the very questions/statements you listed.

    • Shot in the leg, really. How about shoot the knife out of there hand? Have you ever shot a gun at a target, now add a moving target, You shoot center body mass, more a chance of stopping the threat. And u don’t stop till the treat is done and if that’s a leather shot so be it. Why must a cop shoot someone charging them? because what is that persons intention, if he gets to you you don’t know that persons background, is he a martial arts black belt, MMA fighter. And if he reaches you you it could be too late and now you family is burying you. What about the knock out game where kids are coming up the innocent people and knocking them out cold. There not armed but lots of people have died from this senseless act of violence. Deadly force with no weapon but there fist. So go ahead and when someone is charging you shoot there leg or wait till they get close and tell them u want to talk…

    • Ignorance is bliss… So you want cops to be precision shooters and trained ninja’s?

      First, stop lowering standards to allow for the agency to mirror the demographics. Second, prepare yourself for the cost. The amount of money it would take to achieve the perception some of you have of the police would be astronomical. Ammunition alone would break the bank. And the time it would take to initially train each officer, and then for each officer to maintain that level of proficiency would be insane. Oh and while they are training to the level of bad-assery some of you think each and every officer in the US should be, who patrols the streets?

      Before you start getting crazy thinking every cop is a bad ass-special operations ninja, have you looked at cops lately? Why do you think the military only selects and trains a few to that level? MONEY and potential, not everybody is a bad ass.

      This debate is stupid. If you don’t have enough common sense not to attack an armed person, then you have accepted the potential you will get shot, a lot. I’m tired of some of you wanting all things possible. You can’t have it both ways, cops fighting or cops kissing ass, which is it? You want cops to stop shooting ‘unarmed’ people, for crying out loud, stop attacking cops.

    • Seriously? Shoot them in the leg? That’s great, that way when he misses the smaller target he can hit a bystander, and not the idiot attacking a police officer.

    • 1. “Police in other countries shoot them in the legs.” Really? Name one.
      2. It’s not “shoot to kill” here in America– it’s shoot to live. Armed or unarmed– the LAW doesn’t care. It cares about fear of immediate great bodily harm or death, using the Reasonable Man concept to validate it. Whether he’s armed or unarmed is literally BESIDE THE POINT, according to the law.
      3. OK he has a gun pointed at him by an officer, who is telling him to stop and to obey his commands. Now he rushes the officer (in your scenario). If the officer fears great bodily harm, he’s going to shoot. But you want him to determine if he is unarmed (in 1.5 seconds). he Tueller Drill proves that he can cover that 20′ in 1.5 seconds. You want the cop to figure out in that time that this aggressive, non-cooperative individual doesn’t have a knife or pistol somewhere on him as he charges. And if not, we do what? Get into a fistfight with him? This is a recipe for a dead cop.

    • Problem here is “hands were NOT up” We verified that one already so that dead horse you keep beating… . Its dead ok. You know nothing about combat we dont shoot you in the leg or shoot the gun out of your hand like in the movies… If you are given a lawful order by a police officer and you refuse that order and continue to disobey that order any force can be used against you to effect an arrest…YOU have no right to resist..BY LAW!! And if you use force against that police officer to defeat that arrest.. Force can be used up to and including deadly force… That is not an opinion… That is real law.. I didnt make that law..

      • I am a lawyer. That is not the law. Police are only allowed to use deadly force to protect their lives or others lives. Police can not use deadly force merely to effect an arrest. Furthermore, a citizen does have the legal right to resist an unlawful arrest.

    • No, Police in other countries aren’t trained to shoot suspects in the leg. That’s retarded. If you shoot someone in the leg, you will most likely hit the femoral artery and the person will bleed out in a matter of seconds. Learn some basic biology before commenting on how people should or should not be allowed to defend themselves.

    • You sir are an idiot. At 21feet you can charge a person and take them down before they can draw and return accurate fire. We don’t shoot in the legs because if we did then anytime some didn’t get shot in his toe and died then you get sued so bad (we shoot center mass) you have to pawn your cruisers to pay the suit. Judging by your moronic statements I can assume you have never had a pissed off felon high on coke 20 ft away and they have charged at you. Few things pass through your head in the 2.2-3.3 seconds before he is beating you to death., taken your weapon and your kids are orphans. And that question is do I shoot? Will I kill the person behind this asshole. And should I shoot, in under 3 seconds, you better hope he is not quick. Also, what if you miss, or have a stovepipe? Are able to get to your secondary, your less-lethals- which don’t always work. I got 4 shots of OC to the face and had to fight 3 dudes for I dunno around 3 mins before I had back up. If you want pacifism and peace from a cop your dumb. Cops have a obligation, you can’t make them go away, or talk them from taking you jail. I worked unarmed security and got stabbed in the forearm with a screwdriver and did I try to disable him and 2 other friends, no I beat his head in with a mag lite, his friends ran and I went home and kissed my kids. What if I was armed I would have shot used all peaceful means, no I would have shot him in the face, went home and kissed my kids.

      And CommonSense, you have none, I assume you to have never wore a shield or fatigues and been down range. The assholes that shoot cops and soldiers does not give a crap about being all nice and shoot to wound! I recommend you to strap on a duty belt and push a black & white or pick up a weapon and walk a patrol, actually don’t, you might get a friend of mine killed.

      And brad, your wrong as well! Jesus, it’s life and death out there everyday, you arm chair wanna be’s need to suck it up, because, despite what your momma told you, violence is not only necessary but sometimes it’s required

    • If you are stupid enough to charge an armed officer that has given you commands and you are ignoring; you probably deserve to die. I have never heard of someone being shot because they made a wrong move. If you attack an officer, that is another story. Try to take his gun? What do you expect to happen exactly?

      • The former Green Beret in that Las Vegas Costco didn’t get much of a chance re: wrong moves. Wasn’t happy about that, much.

    • You try and shoot a 3 inch target moving toward you. Shooting for the legs is only something that happens in the movies. Can’t recall anyone shooting the legs of an attacker… because they end up dead. You shoot to stop the threat, and in Brown’s case, it took a shot to the head to stop the threat. That’s it. If I would have been in the same situation, the end case would be the same, I shoot until the threat is no longer a threat.

      Check out the Tueller drill:

      You have approximately 1.5 seconds to gauge and react to the threat, so you aim for the biggest target, not the smallest. Take a class or something, you’ll change your view, I guarantee it.

    • It is your kind of ignorance of the reality of altercations that causes the divide we have on this issue. As a martial artist myself I can tell you one does not need weapons to kill. Second, an enraged 18 year old can close the distance in two seconds and bullets often do not stop a charging animal like this thug in time even if shot through the lungs. Michael Brown signed his own death warrant by being a scoff law punk just like he was raised. It is his parents fault for not showing the parental concern they should have BEFORE this sudden burst of love and emotion now that they and everyone else can profit off of Michael Browns death. It is disgusting. I saw all I needed to know about his character when he bullied that minority shop owner (Pakistani). Clearly Mike was a racist. Can you imagine what the headlines would have been if Mike was white and bullied that shopkeeper. Mike was never taught respect for authority because he likely had no father to kick his a%% as he should have. That is the main problem with black culture, No dads thus no respect for authority. The outrage that occurred in Ferguson by the Obama/Eric Holder rioters was typical and completely anticipated. What the shop keepers should have had is several military style Gatling guns and 5000 rounds each. Then as the mob approaches and throws their Molotovs at the innocent shopowners stores….the owners drop the plywood covers and pull the triggers….hosing the rioters down with lead. They would never riot again and crime would immediately go down thereafter.

    • Wow!! You really have no clue. The offender already tried to take his gun, or does that not count? If he gets the officer’s gun, what do you think he’s going to do with it? As a police officer, you are trained to stop the threat. There’s no such thing as shoot to wound. You watch waaaaaay too much Starsky and Hutch. If someone tried to take my weapon, I shoot him, and he turns to come back at me after being shot? I’m going to stop that threat. Police are not paid to get beat to a pulp and hope they survive. Just plain stupid comments

    • 1. Everyone on this planet who trains in self defense with a hand gun learns to aim for center mass, or they are learning from a person who does not know anything about hand to hand or armed combat, and hence should not be teaching.
      2. Take some time to review knife fighting strategies from a guy named Danny Inosanto who has been teaching to law enforcement and others for a long time. A man who knows what he is doing can plant a knife in your chest from 20ft away faster than a trained officer can draw and fire a gun.
      3. I have interacted with the police on many occasions and I never felt threatened. Then again, if a cop orders me to do something I am smart enough to comply. And that’s what I teach me children too.
      4. As a trained martial artist I know lots of cool ways to damage or kill a person with my bare hands. You have to look at far more than whether a man is armed. A trained fighter with a 100 pound weight advantage will usually overcome a similarly trained cop who is smaller. Thats why they get to carry all the cool weapons with on their belt. The ones you should worry about are the ones who don’t wear their weapons out in the open.

    • What “other countries” are you referring to? I’ve worked with LEOs in our country and others and I’ve never heard of any of them being trained to shoot them in the legs. For one, if you have your firearm drawn you have a huge rush of adrenaline and you’re not breathing normally. Especially if you have just been attacked. This will throw your aim off, therefore you shoot at the largest target you have, I.E. the chest. Second of all, if you have you’re hands up and you didn’t just attack the officer, you’re probably going to be ok. There are some officers that shouldn’t be cops here, but those are fortunately only a small percentage.

    • This is NOT TV. Shooting is done to end the threat, not to wound. But let’s take your tact; IF you can shoot your attacker in the arm or the leg, there is an excellent chance that you will kill them anyway, sometimes faster than two rounds in the chest. You see, the legs and the shoulders have some pretty heavy-duty arteries in them, severing one can bleed you out in seconds. So, if hits in the arms and legs are so deadly, why not aim for them all of the time? Because in a shooting situation, the shooter is full of adrenaline, a lekely not even capable of that type of precision shot. So you shoot for the leg, miss, and some innocent person a block away gets hit by your stray round. No, I think I’d rather aim at an 18 x 36 area where the round will be stopped before it gets away. Oh, and forget about ‘unarmed’. Many people are killed every year by ‘unarmed’ attackers.

    • Being stopped by the police is one thing. Being stopped by the police and you aggressively attack that officer and reach for his sidearm is another. Yes, officer Wilson drew his weapon on Michael Brown but he charged at officer Wilson in an aggressive nature. He was shot in the arm and chest area but he kept on coming. That is when the police shot him in the head. Michael Brown is dead because he made a choice to attack a police officer. The forensic evidence has proven this.

    • Shooting to wound is a movie and TV generated pipe dream. Go out to the range sometime, run around until your pulse rate is u, and you are sweating and panting. Then try for the “leg” shot yourself. When adrenilin is surging because you fear your own death, (the only time deadly force is justified) it is going to be hard to even hit a torso. When a cop tells you to hit the ground, you better do it now.

    • Shooting at a person’s legs is just as dangerous as center-mass hits. Have you ever heard of the femoral arteries? Yeah. If you get shot in the thigh and the bullet perforates that artery, you’re dead. Center-mass training is there for a reason. If deadly force is going to be used, it’s better to shoot to kill an aggravated assailant rather than shoot to maim and have a person slowly bleed out with undue extended suffering. Besides all that, a person can survive most non-critical hits at center mass. Shooting someone in the legs can incapacitate them for life and runs a higher risk of femoral artery hits. Have you ever seen or heard of someone who had one of their femoral arteries damaged? It’s extremely difficult to treat and repair without the use of a tourniquet. It’s one of the biggest and most important arteries in your body.
      It’s easy to talk about things you’ve not experienced and yes, there are some very dishonorable and excessively violent police officers looking for an excuse to shoot, but with all the aggravated rhetoric against police officers, they have a reason to be on edge when a situation merits the use of their sidearms and other firearms.

    • It’s “shoot to stop” never shoot to kill. Officers are trained to shoot to stop, then immediately must take on the role of providing medical aid if possible. Police are never trained to just shoot people, there are leveled steps of confrontation, and specific criteria, all covered by training that they must learn. If you are not a police officer, don’t post rash, idiotic responses that aren’t thought out. This article is a common sense article. Read the other replies to your ridiculous post.

      • Both my brother, his wife and my Uncle are career police officers. And not 1 of them is taught to shoot to stop, thats just plain stupid! They are ALL training to shoot-2-kill! For this reason only, you only draw your weapon when your life is threatened and that is when you will also use it, and if your life is threatened you aim to kill, nothing else. You watch too much TV Brian!

      • George, I don’t know where you live or where your family is employed, or how long ago they entered into law enforcement, but the national standard for teaching level of force is to use the verbiage “stop the threat”. If you family is older, then it is possible they were trained with different wording….but the this is an argument of semantics. Often times a threat has to be killed in order to be stopped. If I remove my firearm from its holster, it is because there is a threat and I intend to stop that threat. Should I the situation be resolved before deadly force is needed, I will return my firearm to its holster, unused.

    • The rule of 21, that’s why. A person 21 feet from me can get to me and lay me out before I have a chance to react accordingly. My second point is that if a person is a threat to me, and I shoot them in the leg…..they are still a threat. They can still walk, shoot, throw a punch, kick, and throw rocks…….If I have the NEED to stop a threat, then it NEEDS to be quickly and efficiently. For example: a man with a baseball bat is charging at your wife (husband) do you shoot for the shoulder hoping he will be stopped by the injury? Before you answer, take into consideration that the shoulder/arm/hand is a small, moving target. Even trained shooters on the range could have difficulty with that shot. Now lets throw in some fear, adrenaline, and witnesses in the background; that shot just got a whole lot harder. For the benefit of the doubt, let us assume you can make that shot, and you do….so now the assailant is considerably closer to your spouse, one shoulder hurting…..but still fully capable of kicking, hitting, pushing, strangling, shooting, and still using that bat to attack. Your goal, in this scenario is to STOP THE THREAT. Did you know, that a person shot in the heart can still charge at you and have enough time to beat you before he falls to the ground? Did you know that one shot to the stomach, leg, or arm will not throw the attacker off of his feet or knock him backwards? This is not a movie, this is not scripted, this is reality. I encourage you to remember these facts should anyone bust into your home, approach you on the street, or when you are Monday morning quarterbacking the latest act of “unnecessary violence”‘ being sensationalized on the news.

    • I can’t even finish reading your comment because you’re confused on the FACTS. It’s been proven his hands were not up. You also probably believe he was a ‘perfect model citizen.’ He stole from a liquor store, charged a police officer, and tried to take his gun. Why is that so hard for people to understand? You all are swimming in that river in Egypt, de nile river. Here’s the secret on how not to get shot by a police officer. Listen to him. Do as he says. Don’t fight him. Pretty simple if you ask me.

    • Stand in front of gang member, thug or threatening person 20 ft away and tell me you don’t feel threatened! Your comments are, once again, based on ignorance! You are NOT a police officer, nor have you gone through the training they have. Also, your example of what Law Enforcement does in other counties is meritless also! Cops in other countries do not have the same “criminal element” that the US does….do some research slick! And not just the research of like people who think the way you do! Look at both sides and, if you are NOT a cop, you have NOThING to say…..go spend a day in the county jail just observing what kind of people they deal with!

    • I am a Police Officer in Australia. No where do Police Officers mean to shoot someone in the legs, You aim centre mass to stop the threat. Doing what the Police say stops these events happening. Simple isn’t it.

    • Broiwn’s DNA is ON THE GUN when he was first shot at so stop with BS crap about being 20 feet away, its simply not true! Blood spatter PROVES without a doubt that Brown was at a full run towards the officer when he was shot and killed; these are indisputable FACTS., Bur gt when you just want to burn stores and loot your xmas gifts, truth matters NOT!

      • “So, why are we judging a police officer who makes the same decision you would make under the same circumstances?
        Get a reality check, folks.”

        Indeed a reality check is called for. A person going about their business that finds themselves faced with an aggressor is not the same a cop that has all the equipment and back-up in the world. The cop MUST justify EVERY action they take and if they don’t want to adhere to the higher standard, THEN DONT BECOME A COP!

        “So, why are we judging a police officer…”

        Because it IS a POLICE OFFICER. Period. The author of this piece is pretty dim witted if that basic concept is not self evident to him.

    • You are right in that making a wrong move does not call for execution. But rushing an officer? If someone unarmed rushed me I’d kill them with whatever I had handy if I thought they posed a threat to my life. Besides people don’t think realistically about how many 9mm shots it can take to take someone down. At 20 feet a knife or metal knuckle can be more lethal than a gun. If you search live leaks you can find video of people rushing cops unarmed, getting shot more than 7 times, and still managing to take the officers weapon and kill him. Frankly police are there to help, and if the citizens find them abusive then I do believe they have the right to disband them by vote. But I also believe the deaths by civilian violence would be greater without a police force. But no one should be forced to take a beating and possibly be killed because a person would rather rush them than listen to the police and get down on their face. Also sometimes other countries do shoot people in the leg. Sometimes they shoot them in the head. And either way there isn’t usually even an investigation because their laws give police much more authority. And even in most countries without guns a cop can walk right into your home and “find” contraband any time they please without a warrant or any paper work. Lastly if you rush an officer in mexico, Russia, Spain, Germany, south america, or a slew of others they can and will kill you. I am of the opinion that the majority of the people willing to run unarmed at an officer regardless of intent is a threat or will become one and no one should weep if they get themselves killed. And for the small percentage that had noble reasons for charging at a cop… Well every judicial system has innocent casualties, and has for all of recorded history.

    • what country dumbass? show me one civilized country where they aim for the legs? You can’t, no one is that stupid. you are a troll making up bullshit comments.

    • There is no where on the human body (NO where) that can be shot and not guarantee that that person won’t die. I would not want to be the officer who went to court on a fatal shooting and state “I only meant to wound him.” If the threat does not warrant killing, than it doesn’t warrant shooting. On the other side, if you don’t want to get shot, don’t attack a cop or any other armed person.

    • Cops don’t shoot to kill in America. They shoot until the threat stops. Why aim for the body? The aim for the body because it is the biggest and easiest to hit target. If you aim for an arm or leg and miss guess what? You just sent a round to fly through the air and possibly kill an innocent person. that’s why. Not rocket science here. If Brown would have just stopped he may still be alive. But instead he wanted to be an idiot….

    • So, we are expected to believe that the suspect – whom cursed the officer for being called out for jaywalking (Because everybody walks to the end of the block in the suburbs and circles back) afraid of being charged with petty theft of cigars, approached the vehicle when called, he didn’t run… and attacked the officer while handing off the cigars to another. There was no ego of the officer involved in this initial confrontation for being disrespected. The officer could not disengage. We are to believe suspect potentially had a gun in his waistband – but tried to go through the cruiser to obtain the officers first. We are also to believe – after shot fired in the vehicle – the stallion of a suspect walked away – turned around, went for a supposed gun in his waistband, and charged after the officer exited the vehicle – clear headed planning an attack, the officer – not dazed from the obvious report the happened in the vehicle, and the punch he received on the *right* side of his head. – not the fat dazed suspect staggered away, turned around – doubled over in pain after being shot at close range (powder found) – then was finished off for “going for a weapon”. We are not to believe this because witness accounts vary – and if an accident happens – we all know you’ll get 10 different stories from 10 different witnesses.

      Where is the patrol car footage and audio? All this gear and no camera? Had them here for decades. Seems curious. That the officer had no non lethal weapons seems curious. That he was in mortal peril in a cruiser that could move or wind up the window seems dubious. That he didn’t call for backup seems curious. Why was he left to lay in the street for so long? Still a threat till sure he was dead?

      This is quite a bit more than simply “unarmed”.

      I’d like the rest of the story. I find it unusual that every time something like this happens – it’s never a bad decision or bad officer. Everyone is guilty, there is no need for Internal affairs to exist. We find out after DNA evidence time after time we execute and jail the innocent. Yet – we NEVER apprehend anyone with unjust force because – hey – coulda woulda. Funny how black and white some like to make these things despite the obvious fact, the innocent do get executed.

      Cops do murder their family as well – but their arrest records are spotless, we assume. This will come to a head when a NRA member gets cocky to an officer, disrespects authority like they seem to do at times, at least to the presidency, and gets shot when he see’s his weapon. Then – oh – we’ll see demand for changes. You won’t be able to judge an armed person as a threat.

      • I think you are misinformed….Brown wasn’t jaywalking…..he was walking down the middle of the road. If you would visit the “lovely ‘hood” you would see this often. Brown bowed up to the officer when confronted and then attacked the officer inside his patrol vehicle. Brown was not some innocent angle nor was he “executed”.

    • Please produce one (1) example of a police officer in another country that purposely targeted an assailant in the legs.

      Additionally, numerous studies have shown an individual can easily charge an armed officer before the officer can draw and fire their weapon.

      You obviously have an axe to grind and aren’t REALLY interested in the truth, but if I have misjudged please take sometime and do some research rather than repeat “facts” from the mainstream media or talking points from Al and Jesse.

    • I’m guessing you have never been in a deadly force confrontation. No policeman or soldier or even private citizen is trained to shoot someone in the legs. We all train to shoot center mass and there are reasons for that. The first reason is this is not the movies. Real guns real bullets real dead. Secondly shoots are stressful situations by nature. No matter what your level of training is you will be stressed. Tunnel vision, auditory exclusions, not to mention the loss of fine motor function. No one shoots with 100 percent accuracy under those conditions. Third a shot taken and missed is a bullet that could potentially hit and kill or injure someone else. That person may be you, your wife or one of your kids. We train to shoot to stop the threat not to shoot to kill. The biggest mass on your body and the place I am most likely to hit under stress and is most likely to incapacitate you is the chest. That’s where we shoot. As for distance, a grown man can cover 20 feet in a matter of a few seconds (google tueller drill) Every force confrontation a police officer is involved in, involves a weapon. The officers. If he gets into a physical confrontation and is rendered unconcious there is the potential of that officer losing his weapon and that weapon being used against him or someone else.

    • Name your source about how police in other countries shoot limbs on moving assailants. And it’s not shoot to kill, it’s shoot to neutralize and if that means in order to stop someone is shoot till the assailant stops resulting in death, then it’s within the confines of the law. You have no experience in firearms whatsoever, and even in a control situation, it’s hard to make non-lethal hits and then add adrenaline in a real life situation, shooting a limb would be impossible and no guarantee of stopping anyone. Stop watching movies…

    • Which countries shoot for the legs?

      I’ll let you in on a secret. Shooting someone, no matter where, IS deadly force.

      But let’s go with your argument for a moment. Let’s say a cop was trained to shoot for the limbs.
      So cop shoots at bad guy, hits him in the legs. Shatters bad guys femur. Man could be a cripple for the rest of his life.
      Or he breaks the femoral artery and the man bleeds out in minutes and dies. Or bone fragments break the femoral artery and he dies.
      Or the bullet misses the much smaller moving (or not moving) target and hits someone else.
      Or it hits but blows right through and hits someone else. Law enforcement ammo is designed to penetrate up to 15 inches. A leg probably won’t stop a bullet so chances are it will keep going and go… where?

      Shooting IS deadly force. End of story. It should never be considered anything less.

      So going back to the story. Now the cop is on the stand and says well I didn’t MEAN to kill him. It is now negligent UNLAWFUL death. Or heaven forbid he shot a little girl riding her bike when he missed that much smaller target.
      A chest is much harder to miss. It’s much thicker. It’s harder to move out of the way (dodge). In other words it’s very easy to dodge with your legs than move your whole torso.

      The object is to stop the threat. More likely to do that shooting at major organs than not shooting at any organs at all. Not guaranteed, just more likely. There are plenty of stories where someone shot all up continues on like nothing happened.

      Unarmed does NOT mean not dangerous. People all over the world have been killed with a single punch. Look that up.

    • NO, Officers in other countries do not shoot unarmed people in the legs. No where in the world are law enforcement taught to shoot individual body parts. Police EVERYWHERE are taught to shoot center mass to stop the threat. If a person was shot in the leg it’s because of the situation was so chaotic that the officer most likely jerked his trigger when firing. Now let me tell you something else, if you do exactly what the police officer says. IE. step out of the car, turn away from me and put your hands on top of your head, walk backword to the sound of my voice, STOP! Kneel on the ground cross your legs, Don’t Move. Pretty self explanatory isn’t it. If you pull a stupid move like try to take an officers weapon away from him or in a rage attack an officer. then you get shot. As you should. You don’t put hands on an officer and you do what your told. You have your lawyer get you out of trouble if your truly innocent.

    • Police in other countries dont shoot suspects in the legs. That is just where they happened to shoot them. I don’t know of any country that teaches to shoot anywhere except center mass. You obviously have NO idea what you are talking about. Here in America it is not “shoot to kill” as you stated. Law enforcement are trained to “shoot to stop the aggressive action.” This means to shoot until the threat is neutralized. That can mean 1 shot…it could mean 16. During a time of extreme stress, chances are you are not going to hit what you are shooting on the first shot. Read on the subject as I have and educate yourself.

    • You are the exact reason we have all these problems today. What cases can you give where a bunch of cops unload their weapons because the don’t like the way someone moves oh while on the ground with their heads up????? Also when was the last time you had to make a life or death decision in under 1/2 a second??? Even an emergency doctor runs tests before he makes any maior decision. When was the last time you tried to shoot a moving target and just hit the target in the arm or leg? Maybe you should educate yourself on how and why cops do what they do with a ride along with a cop in your area or join a citizens police academy where they teach you how and why just like the police are trained and put you through fire no fire situations and you will see exactly why they do things like they do.


    • I have taken gun classes, they don’t teach anyone to shoot in the legs, you shoot center mass noguff. bottom line if a cop has his gun pointed at you don’t charge them less you want to be killed.

    • The key words here are “Why must someone die if they RUSH AN OFFICER, unarmed”. Unless its his wife or 4 year old daughter, seems reasonable to assume their intent is not to hug the officer’s neck. Attempting to hit a “rushing” attacker in the arms or legs is a result of too much television, poor training or simply a poor shot. Get real “Pilgrim”!

      PS:In the real world, being tried by 12 always trumps being carried by 6. I don’t know you good sir, but some how, I just don’t see you “charging” a police officer under any circumstance. Am I wrong?

      • I do have to say though that this recent incident where the perpetrator swung at the officer with a wall-mount flag pole might have been a stretch. Avoiding a swing like that is very easy to do and I’m not sure I would have felt sufficiently threatened by it to shoot him. Of course, I can’t speak for what that particular officer was feeling at the time.

    • My son-in-law is a policeman…according to how I understand it, a policeman is not supposed to even take his gun out of the holster unless he feels his life or that of another person is at stake…shooting someone in the leg is not validating that the officer felt he was defending the cause. If someone was attempting to take your life, would you only consider shooting him in the leg, that doesn’t prove you had fear for your life. If it is you or me, trust me I am not going to allow you to still be able to take me out. Until you have walked in the shoes of a policeman, you have no right to comment on how they handle the case at hand.

      • “Until you have walked in the shoes of a policeman, you have no right to comment on how they handle the case at hand.”

        So by this halfwit logic; if you are not a politician, you have no right to comment about politics.

        You, Cory, are an idiot.

  2. This article is nothingness, if you actually read it, it says nothing. It literally asks a few questions and gives an uneducated opinion.

    • It’s also called getting an education. They teach about the use of deadly force in college. There have been people that have been shot in the heart and still able to move fast and well enough to jump over walls to escape from police, just to be found dead on the other side. Officer had no idea he had shot him through the armpit. Turns out the man was on something that kept him alive. In this case he was in the middle of raping a woman and she said he had a knife. No knife was found but the officer had to go on the information he had.
      It is unfortunate that people die in this way. We will not know anything for sure until toxicology comes back and there has been a proper investigation into the shooting. Whenever an officer puts a hand on their weapon, that is use of deadly force. If that gun comes out of its holster you should expect to die if you do not comply to their orders.

      • Again, this is just people telling stories! Stories that always have a biased twist. If I’m reading an article on such a serious matter I expect facts where possible, comparisons to other countries, studies. Otherwise it is nothing. Anyone can write this article, literally anyone with that point of view could have written it.

      • No, no I didn’t read the article, just felt like mixing things up a bit…of course I read the article you big eejit. What a non question!

  3. Ok, aren’t police officers trained in hand to hand combat? im pretty sure most of the population isnt trained in hand to hand combat either. If you are afraid to be physical or be physically handled then you shouldnt be a cop. if you are worried about being taken out by yourself then maybe we need all cops to have partners so that instance of “being overwhelmed by a criminal.” I get its a dangerous job but knee caps hurt like a mother if your shot in them so do shoulders. You chose to be a cop i didnt force you to be one. There are inherent dangers of being one, suck it up powder puff and do your job with a little more restraint than what you have been doing. My father worked over 40 years as a deputy sheriff and moved up the ranks but only drew hus gun 2 times in 40 years and a majority of the years he didnt in a rural county with back up 20 plus miles away and never shot anybody that was aggressive towards him. He just beat the hell out of them but you know what…… they were alive the next day.

      • For someone named Common Sense, that second sentence shows that you have very little of it.

      • There has been school shootings in the early 1900’s. The world is fkd up these cops do need to calm down. It’s all a money game everybody trying to belittle somebody else to make a extra buck. Prisons are packed, ceos make too much, create jobs and Shut down the federal reserve start a greenback. Kill the sharks they gotta go. They’re all about money and corporations. They don’t give a fuck about you. This system is rigged, it’s over kids. The problem starts at the top and the shit falls down the hill. I’m all good though! #unionalltheway

    • Police officers are taught a joke of “hand to hand” combat and some weak sauce hand cuff in techniques in a controlled enviroment where everything goes the way you want, think of full grown adults doing day 1 of a martial arts class aimed for 10 year olds. Yes your father being a sheriff deputy for the middle of nowhere may have rarely drawn his firearm but, an officer in say south central LA where the is high gang and crime activity those officers probably have their weapon drawn much more. Also, police officers are trained to shoot center mass of their target since it is the easiest to hit, has the most penetration resistance as on officer is responsible for everything the officer his including innocent bystanders in the background. There are rare instances where they are trained to aim for the T section of the head/face. You also have to take in account these decisions are required to be made within 1.5 seconds. 21 feet a person can close the distance and make a melee strike within the reaction time to pull the trigger of a firearm. Also many LEO are unfit physically, often are much older than people they’re expected to chase, catch, detain, I’m sure your father was unable to physically handle a young adult who has not been aged, not wearing a large amount of weighted gear.

    • Why would a copy engage in hand to hand combat? If anyone wants to challenge the authority of an officer, they are taking their lives in their own hands. Don’t blame the officer if you put him in such a situation.

    • Lee your comments have no basis in reality. Officer Wilson escalated force in reaction to Brown’s attack. Brown was the equivalent of an NFL lineman. He also had a massive advantage when he attacked at the car, because Wilson was unable to engage his core muscles while seated in the vehicle. He also was not able to retreat into the vehicle and was likely hitting the solid screen behind the seat with every punch. He did not have enough room to effectively hit back as he had a limited range of motion. Brown, however, was able to punch with his full strength from a standing position. There is no “hand to hand” technique that will get you out of that situation. To employ any technique effectively, you need full range of motion and the ability to move. Wilson drew his sidearm. That, in itself, is an escalation of force and it is intended to show Brown that sh*t is getting serious. Most suspects react in one of two ways-they submit saying “don’t shoot” or they run. Brown did neither-he tried to take the gun…that shows BROWN’s intent-to murder Wilson. The physical evidence is absolute in this case. Brown’s hand was on Wilson’s gun when it went off in the car. When he turned around and charged Wilson, he got what he paid for. Apparently your dad didn’t have angry, high, aggressive criminals in his rural district or you might have never been born.

    • Wow, another genius. Police are trained go up a level. If someone wants to fight, you have pepper spray, tazer, baton. If someone trys to take your gun, even an IDIOT can see this is a life and death fight. They teach that because you don’t know who that person is, what their skill level is. What if that officer if a female? She’s been trained same as a male, would you expect her to go toe to toe with the 6″5 gentle giant that just tried to take her gun? Until you’ve been in the uniform, best you just stay behind your ipad and keep your stupidity to yourself

    • So you’d like to see more cops beat the shit out of people. Brawling in the streets, just like the good old days. MAYBE policy should be that cops and assailants are driven to the nearest boxong ring for 10 rounds, winner walks away free. TWO MEN ENTER, ONE MAN LEAVES!

  4. If you have never been in the situation, then you don’t have a right to judge and make an opinion. I am a retired law enforcement officer and I worked both rural and urban settings. In the rural settings, back-up was most times 20-30 minutes away, if at all available. In the urban setting, we seemed to be tripping over each other. Some of the comments seemed to be referring to the Ferguson shooting; and they also seemed incorrect and off base. If the comments refer to other situations, they may be pertinent—but we don’t know from the information which is the true reference. One thing though, LEO’s are not trained in hand-to-hand combat, and the self-defense training given at most academies leaves a lot to be desired. Another thing, I do not want anyone defending me that tries to hit someone in an extremity (arm or leg). With the adrenaline pumping and everything moving erratically, and fast, you might as well try shooting a butterfly in flight. Besides, a shot to the arm or leg can cause someone to bleed out as fast, or faster, than a body mass shot. If some of the comments I read were made by LEO’s, I can only “assume” they are not now nor have they ever been a front line officer. But! Know this! If I were to have stopped someone for a verbal warning and were summarily attacked and suffered an injury that affected my ability to see and think clearly, there stands a great probability that I would draw my weapon and if, in my present state of mind and with the injury, I determined that I was in danger of losing my life, I would shoot you, wherever I could, to eliminate the threat that you were there presenting. I do not believe that we as a public face any credible danger of being shot by law enforcement without justification in this nation. However, I truly believe that law enforcement today, in most every jurisdiction, deals with the most dangerous public in our entire history as a country. That’s my “opinion.”

    • Funny how if he was so injured that he had time to continue walking around the scene without calling for medical help.

      • He had called for backup before everything began, but his radio accidentally selected a broadcast-only channel.

      • It’s called adrenaline! You can be injured yet still be standing because your adrenaline is on overlad.

    • You say “If you have never been in the situation, then you don’t have a right to judge and make an opinion.” Finally someone who agrees with me. If you are a man, then you have no right to judge and make an opinion about abortion rights. If you are heterosexual, then you have no right to judge and make an opinion about gay rights. Yes, I’m being sarcastic. Everyone gets to express their opinion and be heard in America. And we should all listen to each other because you never know when someone not in your same position will say something that you never considered. That being said, I think that if an officer is being charged by someone, they can use necessary force to stop them. But perhaps a taser would be better than a bullet. If the officer was charged and didn’t have a taser, then 1) why didn’t he have one? and 2) using a gun seems acceptable to me. Obviously, if he was not be charged by the suspect, then shooting does not seem acceptable.

      • Mark’s comments are the few that are based on fact and experience. Yes everyone is entitled to their opinion, but that doesn’t make them accurate or even smart.

        The funny thing about police work is that everyone has an opinion, but very few have a good understanding of the training and situations police deal with – the situational factors are endless

        Firstly, police are taught to stop the threat in a violent situation, be it with verbal communication, OC spray, taser and up to deadly force.

        Shooting at centre mass is one of the best ways to guarantee hitting the target and thus stopping the threat. Pistol shooting is difficult skill and when stress is added, your lucky to hit the broad side of a barn. Now many civilians think police are superhuman, i.e. They can whip a man half their age and twice their weight, are expert marksman who can shoot nickles out of the air, don’t feel pain, fear or stress and make perfect decisions everytime. Put in that context, no one believes that.

        Going to police training is a reality check on your vulnerability and capabilities. Getting on the street is another eye opening experience. I am an active Leo and my father is retired after 40 years of service. Times have changed greatly between our generations. We have more tools and non lethal weapons to deal with people, however the public/bad guys have less respect for leo’s and are more willing to use violence. Lastly, the demographic of police has changed greatly.

        Police equipment is significantly better and so is the training… We are winning more, but people are more willing to challenge us physically. But remember police agencies used to require police to be male, be strong and fit and be over 6 feet. Over the last 40 years the public has since asked for more diversity, we now hire women and people of all colors, sizes and physical ability.

        I am 6 feet, 195 lbs, fit and have taken my own mma training. I train with swat and I am marksman rated shot. If a fit and strong 300 lbs man attempted to resist or fight me, there is a very real chance I would have to shot him. Image if your a 5’2″ 120 lbs women?? What would you do?

        If you truly feel police are wrong in their training and the things said about their training, I challenge you to try some of their training or drills. A simple one anyone can do is called 2 on 1 handcuffing. Have you and a buddy handcuff a friend who is directed to resist at all costs. The “bad guy” friend cannot get off his knees and there are no strikes to the face or body allowed, everything else is fair game. I expect the chances of the two guys getting their friend handcuffed are slim, and everyone will be exhausted in 30 seconds.

        Lastly, some people like to believe police are always looking for a fight and want a resisting subject. The reality is leo’s, like everyone, are inherently lazy. Fighting is way more paper work and stress. Usually you get in a fight after sitting for hours and your tired and your muscles are cold, so you almost always tweak a muscle or sprain something. It isn’t what you think.

        I have not touched on 100 other important points, because it usually takes 6 months of basic training for you to just start to understand to concepts associated to keeping yourself and the public save. I am not a fear mongerer, but there are bad people out there and nice people that make bad decisions. 99.5 percent of police contacts end in no violence – impressive numbers.

        Also, a great tool for criminal elements is to direct blame on the police action and not their own actions. The media has played right into their hands. Not including any political battles that take place at the cost of hard working leo’s. Also, people who think this is a north American trend or more shootings are mistaken. People have been dying in police custody since the inception of the first modern police force In London, it just receives more media attention before any of the facts are out. Police accountability and investigation processes are the highest they have ever been.

        Be smart, jumping on a band wagon hurts us all. You don’t want the police to be afraid to arrest people, it is not good for your community – unless your a criminal element.

    • Right on Mark!! I’m 58 years old and am going on 21 years in LE. I agree 100%. I’ve always lived by the quote that “I’d rather be tried by 12 than carried by 6”.

    • I did the job for 13 years, quit in disgust. You’re absolutely correct too. One of the things all the Monday morning quarterbacks is missing is just how fast these things happen, and how close all the snippets of action occur to each other. Hand to hand combat training in the academy – really?

    • Your first sentence shows you are a moron.

      “If you have never been in the situation, then you don’t have a right to judge and make an opinion.”

      So by your logic, if you have never been the President of the United States you don’t have a right to make an opinion on how the President officiates.

      You, Mark; are what is known as idiot.

  5. You can make your case all you want, Ross, but it doesn’t change the fact that in the Western world the only wave of these cases where cops are WAY over reacting is happening the USA. I say this as a Texan that loves shooting sports.

    I’m in Germany now and I just can’t understand how so many of these are happening. In many cases, we are talking about 2 cops (because that is usually how they roll, in pairs) shooting someone that they could have disabled instead.

    If someone else had time to pull out a phone and film with commentary… pretty sure the two cops had time to decide whether or not 6 shots to kill versus 1 or 2 to disable was the right move.

    I’m not defending the cops or the dead folks… I’m simply pointing out that this is crazy. You can look at each case individually, and you should, but you can’t deny that there are some stats that apply to every single one of these recents shootings: cops killing someone that they could have disabled because they used overwhelming force instead of actually responding to the threat with a reasonable action.

    • Your comment that “(because that is usually how they roll, in pairs)” is hogwash.

      In Ferguson MO the officer was in a ONE MAN car, alone. Most departments simply do not have the funding to run tow man cars, with the exceptions being LAPD and NYPD. MOST departments have one man units.

      Your ignorance of the police in the US may be because you are in Germany, and don’t know JACK about the US current police procedures and tactics.

      Talk about something you KNOW about next time Judah Jones…

    • Judah Johns, I’m a 21 year veteran Police Officer and counting, and have worked in the number one ranked most dangerous City to live in in Virginia and now work in the number 6th most dangerous city to live in in Virginia and have never been in a two man car. Back up has been as close as 30 seconds away and as much as 30 minutes away. We have split seconds in some cases to decide what to do and the rest of the world has years to decide if we are wrong or right. I dare say most people could not walk in our shoes.

  6. “I have to agree with the author, just in conversations with my own family, they simply cannot fathom the potential lethality of physical hand to hand combat. This is understandable because they have no experience or training beyond the push and shoves they may have had on a school yard in their youth. Nor do most people recognize that if someone is within 20 feet of you with a knife you are only 1.5 seconds away from serious physical injury or death. It just doesn’t occur to them that it’s only a short charge from knife point to skin. A person can apply an incredible amount of force with a closed hand strike. It’s an uneducated reaction to think that someone can’t kill or render you permanently stupid with a ‘good right hand’.”

  7. I agree with Mark. I am also a retired Policeman. While investigating an armed robbery, I was jumped by a group of gangbangers. I was struck in the face with a 2by4 and had a person jump on my back. Unable to see, I felt another trying to remove my sidearm from it’s holster. All of this while being kicked and punched. My partner was also fighting off his share of these wonderful citizens. I finally removed my weapon and started firing. This action stopped the creeps who all ran into an apt. Let me tell you, I was scared for my life and thought of no other recourse but to shoot. Yes they were unarmed and no one was hit, but I can assure you if I had,I would have not felt sorry for these idiots! I know this is a different scenario, but come on, give us a little slack

    • A 2 x 4 is a deadly weapon, so yes, they were armed, and they had attacked you with this weapon. They were attempting to take control of your weapon, a direct threat to your personal and public safety. You describe at least four or five assailants…taken as a whole…good shoot. Glad you weren’t seriously injured.

      • Take away the 2×4. Would you still say the cop should not shoot in that situation? If he didn’t, what do you think the outcome would have been?

  8. For all you bleeding hearts out there,it isn’t easy being a police officer at times when it is you or him.And if M.Brown strong armed the store owner do you really think he hadn’t done this to someone else before?In a fire fight you shoot first and ask questions later.Life itself is to short to be taking chances.Some of you may not agree but that’s life in the nut shell. James,De Oppresso Liber

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  10. All of you saying he was unarmed… Go find a 6’4″ 250#+ guy and ask him to push you back in your car, hit you in the face a couple of times!! Then, tell me how you feel after that. What would you do? Now imagine you have a gun on your hip and that same guy is trying to take it while still hitting you. Again, what would you do? I imagine 95% or more of you – if you were hit by anyone, of any size, in the face would be overwhelmed. Not sure what to do, scared, what’s next? Is he going to take my wallet, take my car, take my life? What would you do? Can you fight? Are you willing to risk your life by going hand to hand? Are you going to sit down and just let him kill you?

    We have to worry every second of every day, when we are in uniform, that someone is going to try to kill me. Gang initiations, someone who just murdered someone and they think we know, when all we are saying is your headlights are not turned on or you can’t walk in the middle of the road, use the sidewalk. Or someone who just committed a strong armed robbery and thinks we are after him for that and he decides he is not going to go to jail cause he is bigger and can take on the cop with no consequences.

  11. I worked in a mental home as a young man. Often our patients would get violent. Some of them were big and strong. The people I worked with on my ward were middle-aged women and one man close to retiring. Yet we somehow got by without ever shooting or even hurting one.

    • Congratulations! I bet none of your patients had guns in their waistbands, and I bet you were never completely alone with anyone. You don’t hear of very many mental health professionals dying on the job, do you? Very dIfferent scenario.

    • You people are killing me with you unintelligent comments. A mental hospital vs. Police work are apples and oranges.

  12. Not the same Dan. You have to remember that Policemen carry sidearms and other items with them. If he is in a struggle with an unarmed man, that same man now has potential to be armed if he beats or kills that Officer. What do you think that man is going to do if he now has that Officer’s weapon? If he’s brave enough to beat or kill an Officer, I don’t think he will think twice on using that same weapon on some innocent bystander. Policemen have certain rules of engagement to work by, bad guys don’t. They don’t care! Just read Doug’s post above.

  13. Unfortunately the loudest voice and most often the only one heard because it is the loudest, is the person opposed to the action/policy/opinion in question etc. “police haters”, anti-government/control, activists, people with strong opinions, or my favorite, naive people will no matter the situation, information provided to them, or most importantly the information they DONT have about a specific occurrence, be opposed to what ever they have already decided in their mind is wrong before they even heard the story. Facts are ALWAYS limited, or skewed in stories, whether it be by the investigating agency due to evidence or court/privacy & security concerns, or whether it be the way the media portrays the story.

    I’ll admit I have limited knowledge about the recent and popular internet topic of the recent unfortunate police involved shooting in the US. As I dont know everything about it, I will refrain from commenting other than to say, even if charges are not deemed to be warranted on the officer for what ever reason, in some peoples eyes it will always be an injustice, and no evidence or proof will ever change their mind, and it will always be motivated by race. I will also say that my local media introducing the story as “the black kid shot and killed by the white police officer” in it self promotes the event, whether on purpose or not, as racially motivated shooting. Maybe it was…maybe it wasnt…I personally have no idea and wont pretend to have the answer…I think that would be a stretch but only one person knows for sure.

    I will say as someone working/worked in various levels of LE and armed private security, the use of force is not one taken lightly by anyone I’ve ever worked with…not something that anyone looks forward to or hopes to witness….no bragging rights involved. Some of my best friends have been involved in police shootings, some of which have taken lives. What people dont realize is although they have chosen to do the job and know the risks, doesnt mean they should treat their life as less important than the individual they are attempting to arrest or detain etc. They alike have a family, and at the end of the day….him/her, and myself alike WILL go home to them, please dont ask me or them not to….end of story. Also being involved in taking someones life in such a dramatic situation changes ones life, and their families life FOREVER…often even if justified in protecting them self or the pubic in the act, they are forced to move out of the area and uproot their family, not to mention years of therapy…after taking someones life, unless your a sociopath…you will NEVER be the same again. One close friend was presented with a angry violent man in a public place, armed with a knife…this man charged at my friend as he had his pistol trained on his chest (not the hand holding the knife, to make a movie shot)…the man got within 10′ of my friend charging at him, well within the deadly zone…this police officer although justified in doing so…did not shoot. Not because he didnt fear for his life, not because he thought the knife was fake, but because of the race of the man with the knife…he knew that although justified in doing so….didnt shoot, putting his life, the lifes of the public, and other officers in jeopardy because of perception and conversations like this…no one police or otherwise wants to be the center of such publicity, after all not all publicity is good publicity.

    While I have never fired at a person myself…I was one second from shooting…most likely killing, a teenager in an urban environment because he had an cap gun. He thought it was funny and was showing off for his friends, and acting tough. I can only imagine had I not had the exact same cap gun when I was a kid, I would have shot him…not because he deserved to die for making a stupid mistake, but because when I seen a black pistol with a brown handle (no orange tip) come out of his waist line…I was scared for my life…I thought he was going to try to kill me…in that second, it was him….or me.

    The intent of the article is to say one doesnt have to be presented with “X” weapon before deadly force can be employed, for the simple fact that a fatal act can be presented and carried out by a person without a weapon…firearm or not. Police officers are not superheros (some public and PO’s may think they are), they dont get James Bond combat training. Nor are they all snipers able to hit a 3″ square moving knee or shoulder target from several meters away with a 4-5″ barrel, 10lbs triggerpull and your heart pounding out of your chest, anyone who expects them to do this under stress or even in a static range or training environment for that matter is delusional. They are humans, like any other, and such a situation is very primal, and no training will ever prepare you for the real thing. Vest are bullet resistant…not proof, and they dont cover their entire body.

    I have never known a police officer to leave the house or office and say “I am going to kill someone tonight…justified or not”. I will never pretend to think racism does not exist in todays world…for I am not delusional. But in 15 years in the field, I have not EVER, seen another police officers actions and thought…wow…that was only because of their race, age, sex, orientation, religion etc. Again, not saying that some PO’s dont discriminate…not at all. My main belief is that actions of BY FAR the majority of LE personnel are done because they believe they are acting justly, contrary to the opinions of others not exposed or informed on the matter.

    This debate will never be non-existent. The stories and facts may differ on a case to case basis, but people are stubborn in their opinions and their beliefs. People who believe that all cops are the same, all are corrupt, they are only stopped because of their skin color or religion, will in the end always believe that and will always have their voice to protest peacefully or otherwise.

    So, is it possible that someone, law enforcement or otherwise is justified in using deadly force when faced with a perceived threat to life that is not a firearm….absolutely. Police work is unlike most professions… dangerous at times yes, but more so for need and expectation for immediate results and the scrutiny faced after the fact by the world who has had years to analyze the result and the manner in which it was achieved.

    – a 400lbs body builder who’s hobbies are MMA and knife fighting is on cocaine, bath salts, and PCP, is standing in a crowded public mall loosing his mind with a 10″ kitchen knife in one hand and a metal bat in the other having a psychotic episode threatening to kill anyone and everyone that comes near him. Public says to the Police…stop that man, but you cant shoot him with the gun we gave you because he only has a knife and a bat, not a gun. You cant “Taze” him with the Tazer we gave you because they are dangerous and he may have a heart condition. If you tackle him you have to get the knife away from him without hitting him with your baton we gave you (cause that just looks bad), you cant punch or kick the man, use foul language, or hurt him in anyway. Maybe use the pepper spray that we gave you that may infect everyone else in here, because a blind man with a knife is soo safe. Please dont make a scene when you do it, please be quick about it though, I have Christmas shopping to do and hes standing between me and the GAP…thanks…

    …end rant.

  14. this is a ridiculous point that makes very little sense.If you take a job as a “law enforcement” officer you should expect danger, and you are trained to deal with it. Your job is to uphold the law and protect the people. this means protecting ALL the people. So if someone poses a threat, your negotiation, and possibly your combat skills will come in to play. Doormen in clubs are under threat from the one punch “game” that you referenced in an attempt to justify ending the life of an unarmed man, These doormen accept the danger and react to threats without the use of handguns. If an officer of the law is confronted with an unarmed civilian they should be ready to restrain, not determined to kill! you don’t fight fire with fire, you use water! Half the people on this thread are so used to the gun culture and the idiotic and counter productive “right to bare arms” that they can’t see how messed up and power crazed your police force has become. But as a citizen of a country that doesn’t have the “live by the gun die by the gun” mentality ingrained into it’s people (don’t get me wrong, England is far from perfect in the area of law, justice and civil liberty), let me tell you – the world is looking at you in disgust!
    Let me finish by saying this; you’re playing into the hands of the people who want you to hate each other, who want you to fear people of colour, who want communities as segregated as possible. and by chosing to bare arms you are justifying the act of cold blooded murder as a form of self defense, and creating opportunities for power crazed cops to become judge jury and executioner, or if that doesn’t hit home, you are creating a world where a 9 year old girl has to live with the fact she killed a man because “the shooting range is a fun day out for all the family” – what ever motivates you to re-think and implement positive change.

    • First; I am for the large part not pro gun…I live in canada which is closer to England gun laws than the US with the exception that the majority of our law enforcement officers carry firearms.

      Second; you cannot compare a bouncer or door mans job who just needs to get a person out the door and are contracted by private companies with sworn officers who protect civilians. Also if a bouncer gets knocked unconscious he or she doesn’t have a mitriate of restricted and prohibited weapons on their belt or the key to a carbine and or shotgun locked in the car.

      Third; expect danger? Yes…they do expect danger. Fight fire with water…so even if someone has a firearm we are supposed to negotiate. The world isn’t perfect, not every situation can be talked down. One should not be “determined to kill” as you so eloquently put it, but one cannot simply ignore the option and be expected to take unnecessary risks which may cause harm to them simply because they chose to be in that situation.

      Many dangerous situations are delt with everyday in this country, the US, as well as the UK without the use of deadly force. Has there never been a case of excessive force? Not saying that, not for one second. Are police not accountable for their actions merely because they took an oath…absolutely not, they are like any other citizen in the country….same in fact they have the right to defend their life should they feel it was threatened, whether it is with a firearm or a weapon of opportunity.

      Lastly; The “judge jury and executioner” comment. That sentence infers police officers walk up to someone and say…I seen you hit that man, I find you guilty…your sentence…death and than pull the trigger. This is not Judge Dread…nor do I or anyone else on here I think encourage or are in favor of that. That was a broad and uncalled for over reaction of a comment.

      • Also…the child at the range is a tragedy that never should have happened… I agree with teaching children about the dangers of guns, but never, NEVER, encourage them to shoot them in a controlled environment or otherwise. I wasn’t allowed to own or shoot a .22 until I was 16, my children will be the same.

  15. As a retired Law Enforcement officer with 23yrs. Of service. Who taught defensive tactics riot control and less than lethal options. My opinion is, it is the lack of training that creates these terrible unnecessary excessive force situations. Most law enforcement agencies utilize a use of force continuum. The officers shown in these scenarios are not using the guidelines taught to them. They also don’t appear to trust their training and resort to illegal and unethical tactics that make them appear to be unprofessional thugs. In most of the videos I’ve seen these officer’s have several opportunities to use better tactics to establish control. Many of them have less than lethal options and don’t even consider using them. Why not use pepper spray or a taser with verbal commands? I am not talking about the split second scenario. In most of the videos time or distance isn’t a factor.
    If Law Enforcement officer’s want to solve this epidemic they must go back to basics and train to respond to situations correctly. Some of these I divide also shouldn’t be wearing a badge if they can’t do the job they took an oath to do the way they were trained to do it.

  16. Seems to be only American cops who have a problem with having to use deadly force. Most other countries are able to deal with suspects using other means. Says a lot for the type of people American police forces are hiring. Here’s police in the UK dealing with a knife wielding suspect using only tazers…

  17. Fear and cowardice are the #NewCourage… #FraternalOrder are Cowards growing in numbers of the less capable… They screamed “Affirmative Action” would be the killer of “Proper Police work”… Fact of the matter is… As soon as ANY LAW ENFORCEMENT OFFICIAL has a camera their actions go from ” Racist Super Hero” (No Matter the race of the officer) to “Functional and Efficient” Law enforcer… The difference is the fact that communities respond well to those they believe are there to rough up the bad guys… (En Masse we agree with such tactics when properly employed) whereas now we have these “LOSERS” who would be nothing more than warehouse knuckle draggers who move “Shit” from one side of their location to the other… #FACT

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  19. I really enjoyed this article. Society will need a significant paradigm shift to come to terms with the fact that an unarmed man is not necessarily harmless. In fact, if you don’t act appropriately when confronted with an unarmed assailant, you may very well end up dead. End. of story.

    South African law does not differentiate between an armed and unarmed attacker. Yes, the court will have to hear of a damned good reason as to why you shot an unarmed attacker, but if you had sufficient reason to believe that your life was in danger, that is about as far as it needs to go.

    As much as certain organisations are preaching for “Gun Sense”, I think we should rather be preaching for more “Common Sense” in general.

  20. There is meeting the threat level and then there is exceeding it. Do they even teach cops this or only in the military? I mean I learned this stuff day one of firearm training. If the suspect is no longer a threat, a be it not ARMED, then you don’t shoot them.

    Is this really that hard to figure out?

  21. If you want to understand the standards the police are held to when using force, including deadly force, STUDY the 1989 SCOTUS case Graham vs. Connor. Read the findings of the court. Then you will beging to understand the standards the police are held to in a use of force situation. The general public does not have a reason to comment if you do not understand this court case.

  22. Yes, everyone has the right to an opinion, however, they are just that – opinions. None of us know the full truth of the Brown shooting. None of us will ever know what was going through the minds of Brown or Wilson, except them. That is the problem with the media and everyone else who is spurring on the debate without truth of the situation.

    Wilson has been an LEO for 6 years and never received a single complaint from either department. He even received a commendation for extraordinary effort in the line of duty from the Ferguson Police Department. The thing that gets me is that people think Wilson shot Brown just for the hell of it. I’m sure there are some who will differ from my stand point, but I firmly believe Wilson feared for his life. I have heard more than enough stories from police officers who have been in fire fights where one shot was not enough to neutralize the threat. The results of Brown’s autopsy done by St. Louis County showed that his body weighed 289 pounds and was 77 inches in length…nearly 300 pounds and 6’4″…Brown was huge. His sheer body mass is enough to stop rounds from piercing vital organs until he was shot in the head.

  23. The level of Dunning-Kruger Effect displayed in the incredibly ignorant comments on this article is simply stunning.

  24. I don’t have a problem with the actions of Darren Wilson, but I DO have a major one with the actions of the jack booted thugs that responded to the protests in the aftermath. And I’ve had enough of the bs line about how I don’t do the job so I can’t comment on how it’s done. Police Officers are PUBLIC SERVANTS. They answer to the law abiding people of their community.

  25. Wow! Many of the above comments hurt my brain. Graham v Connor. This is the legal standard followed in the U.S. for Use of Force. End of discussion.

  26. Reminds me of a conversation I had with a subject I was trying to arrest. He told me he was going to kick my ass if I tried to arrest him. Rather than insulting his manhood I said he probably could but before I lose consciousness I would pull my gun and kill him. He said you can’t do that. I simply asked him as seriously as I could; Do you want to try me? He promptly turned around and allowed me to handcuff him. He later asked me on the way to jail if I would’ve killed him. I truthfully told him yes I would. Besides if I’m disabled I am the one arming the suspect.

    • Yep. I used to hate it when Dispatch would say “No known weapons involved.” We all get what they are saying and telling us, but it is never true. We arrive with lots of known weapons. Not to mention all the personal and improvised weapons available to everybody all the time.

    • Sadly your fear of being a statics is the same fear I have if I defend myself. States with “Stand your ground” laws in use are very helpful to white people standing their ground, but only about .1% of non-white people using that defense are still sent to prison, granted she will be released soon due to a plea deal, but this was due to national attention. (link to story

      This woman didn’t even fucking shoot anyone, she fired a warning shot. 2 Years in prison for a warning shot that injured no one in a state with “stand your ground” laws. I don’t live in such a state, if I fired a warning shot the cops would likely come and kick my head in even after I put the gun down…

  27. Shooting someone in the leg can be deadly since the femoral artery is very large and bullets don’t just make holes. A bullet causes cavitation which causes the flesh around the wound to be pulverized causing massive damage and hemorrhaging

    • Daniel, My partner was shot in the thigh at close range (about 4 inches), he was still able to fight his attacker, and strip him of his weapon…..the attacker fled. this goes to show that just because death can eventually occur from being shot in the leg, doesn’t mean it is common or that it is quick. I will shoot center mass if at all possible. If I feel it is justified, I will shoot for the head. I will not waste precious time trying to stop a threat with a trick shot.

  28. When a man attacked me and I defended my self, the police told me that I should have ran away. So they to oh me to jail for fighting. Now someone thinks that the police can kill someone instead of running and waiting for backup, the that is just murder, because they don’t have to do what they think we should do. Murder with a badge is all it is. If we can’t defend our selves is a fight, then that should not be able to murder for the same reason……..

  29. Ross Elder, you’re either a terrible person or an idiot. Your advice is great for say, Batman. But for someone that should always have both non-lethal weaponry and a partner with them, “murder first” is not the best policy. To believe otherwise means you think murder is justified whenever you feel like it, which makes you an asshole.

    I’m exercising quite a bit of restraint not making fun of you for not knowing the difference between the military and the police. Although I guess I just did, dumbass.

  30. This post pisses me off. Why the double standard ? Civilians cannot defend themselves with deadly force unless they have the proper licensing and have NO OTHER way out. It is illegal for civilians in a deadly situation to increase the lethality of the situation with drawing a knife in a fist fight or a gun in an armed assault situation. If one does they then are at fault and are imprisoned and tryed for the outcome. Civilians living in dangerous communities or working in dangerous areas should then be able to defend their lives and or property if the sitiation calls for it. What was the second amendment ever written for?

    • you are incorrect. Civilians CAN defend themselves. Laws vary state to state, but I am not aware of any state or jurisdiction that has removed that right from it’s community. To say an individual cannot raise the level of force in order to stop a threat is an example of misinformation. Read your laws and statutes again, I am confident that your state/county/city will not refuse you the right to protect your life.

      • i’m not a lawyer but i’m pretty sure in Massachusetts you can’t escalate the situation as Tony described. i could be mistaken but i remember something like even if someone broke into your home you’d technically have to call the police or escape and call them but you couldn’t attack the intruder. can’t say anyone would be charged in such a situation but i believe thats the actual way the law stands…(this was a while ago and might not still be the case)…not to mention its way harder to own a gun in mass than other states i’ve lived in

  31. It is evident to me that some folks cannot be reasoned with. Their mindsets are firmly entrenched in the “TV cop” mentality where cops should be able to shoot the weapons out of offenders’ hands, do a quick jujitsu move to subdue the perp, and happily go home to the family with a witty joke…

  32. What determines the value of ANY opinion is the amount of CORRECT information it is based upon. It’d be quite a show to see to see some of these “commenters” with no gun in Wilson’s place. Jungle rule is “biggest thug rules”. Glad I don’t live in the jungle.

  33. For some reason, people think police officers are super human. But, surprise and larger size can quickly get the upper hand, making deadly force the only option. And police officers are trained to keep shooting until the threat is gone, so if you attack a police officer, expect to be shot to death. And the same may ho for a civilian in states like Ohio that allow concealed carry. It seems like a very simple concept to me.

  34. There is no such thing as an “unarmed” assailant. If an attacker gets within arm’s reach of a police officer or other armed citizen, and a scuffle ensues, the assailant has almost as much chance of getting control of your firearm as you do. My neighbor, a police officer, was killed in 2008 when an “unarmed teenager” turned and attacked him as he was being escorted back to his mother’s apartment to be released into her custody instead of being arrested. My neighbor was executed with his own gun. He was 28 years old and had a 4 month old daughter. According to the FBI Uniform Crime Reports, scenarios like this happen about 7-8 times per year.

  35. this article is complete and utter nonsense. who is saying you can’t defend yourself if someone just starts beating on you clearly trying to kill you? people have a big issue with the ‘shoot first ask questions later’ idea that seems to be the new motto of police nationwide. with trayvon (in short) people took issue with the fact that zimmerman stalked the kid, made him fear for his safety, and initiated the confrontation in the first place so he had no right to shoot him and the fact that zimmerman was only following him in the first place because he was black. with mike brown there’s a lot more to talk about but i can’t help but think of my D.A.R.E officer back in the day talking about if he were being charged by a big guy he wouldn’t want to use his gun but rather his pepper spray because a big guy charging you might not go down if you just clip him and even if you land a kill shot his momentum could still cause damage where as pepper spray put them down every time no matter how big or crazy they were….people want to defend wilson but that kid is a pussy that probably never got laid in high school, had very few friends and had no right to ever be a police officer. there’s no way there wasn’t anything he could’ve done that would’ve prevented mike brown’s death. pepper spray, tazer, baton, don’t be a bitch are the first ones that come to mind. he looked like my 5 year old niece had slapped him in those photos….people are pissed because the cops showed up and took an alleged robbery and turned it into a dead kid in the streets. no one is saying you can’t defend yourself in a life threatening situation because the person is unarmed…

  36. thank you for the article very useful information, I can’t believe that many people want to argue over semantics,I do have a question.I heard that some countries in Europe or around the world are limited by the number of rounds they carry is there handgun / sidearm but not the size caliber or power….is this true

  37. Are some of YOU FOR REAL??? Brad…you’re SERIOUSLY mental!! You have No, Zero, respect for THOSE willing to risk their life/ safety for total strangers…could be YOU or ONE of YOUR FAMILY members that NEED HELP from those who PROTECTED and SERVE!!! Oh and regardless of their education!! So YOU FEEL if someone DOESN’T have a college degree (btw NYPD requires 2 year college) but that’s irrelevant that you don’t have to show them” any more respect than any other man” ???? REALLY ??? Seems LIKE you are a complete IGNORANT, DISRESPECTFUL person in general. Yes, YOU DO HAVE TO respect a law enforcement officers commands MORE than you would some Joe walking down the street!!! They ARE DOING a JOB!! They are carrying out duties DAILY, WITH A POSSIBILITY OF WALKING OUT THERE DOOR AND NEVER COMING HOME!!! A job which MOST don’t have the balls to do!!! So when an officer gives you a command IT’S F*CKING SIMPLE!! Basic skills you’re taught in F*CKING Pre-K…. PUT your hands up!!, and DO NOT F*CKING MOVE!!! Are YOU a TOTAL AS*HOLE??? YOU REALLY expect, believe, THINK POLICE should fist fight with a perp charging them, (and size, gender is irrelevant) ??? What’s your intent to charge ANYONE, let alone a cop telling you don’t move, show me your hands??? Think that person plans on running up and tickling the cop??? Police are authorized to use deadly physical force, when he or she reasonably believes it is necessary…when they believe there is imminent danger to themself or against ANOTHER person!! There’s a reason law enforcement officers are authorized to do so!! YOU HAVE NO CLUE what it’s like to NOT know what will happen in a life or death situation!! YOU WANT the police to GET charged , attacked ect. And wait and see if the perp has a gun, knife, going to over power you take your weapon anything!! They should further endanger their lives and possibly others FOR a person, who’s breaking the law and attacking a police officer???? REALLY??? YOU talking about the officer’s training this & that!! HOW ABOUT THIS AS*HOLE…. DO AS THE OFFICER IS TELLING YOU TO DO!!! SIMPLE AS SHIT!!!!! A 1 YEAR OLD IS TAUGHT TO LISTEN TO WHAT THEIR PARENTS ARE TELLING THEM TO DO!!! WHY?? BECAUSE THEY ARE THAT CHILD’S AUTHORITY!!!!!! YOU TRY TO CHALLENGE THIS OFFICERS TRAINING & ACTIONS AGAINST A MAN WHO JUST ASSAULTED A STORE CLERK AND ROBBED THE STORE AND IS NOW ATTACKING AND MOST LIKELY WOULD’VE SUCCEEDED IN KILLING THIS OFFICER! BE MORE CONCERNED WITH THIS PERPS ACTIONS, I WONDER IF IT WAS YOUR MOTHER, FATHER, SISTER, BROTHER ECT. THAT HE WAS ATTACKING WOULD YOU HAVE SUCH A CRITICAL ATTITUDE!! HEY IT’S REAL EASY PEOPLE, FOLLOW COMMANDS FROM LAW ENFORCEMENT!! THEY AREN’T REQUESTS!! THEY ARE COMMANDS AND FOR EVERYONE’S SAFETY YOU MUST COMPLY!! WHEN YOU DO AND DEAL WITH WHAT LAW ENFORCEMENT OFFICERS DO ON A DAILY BASIS MAYBE YOU’D GET IT. OH BUT NOT YOU BRAD…YOU ELECTED TO BE AN EDUCATED PRICK RIGHT??? YOU SHOULD THANK GOD FOR “UNEDUCATED PRICKS” IT WOULD BE UTTER CHAOS!!!! WHAT A JOKE YOU ARE!! LIKE IT OR NOT, LIKE POLICE OR NOT, YOU MUST COMPLY WITH AUTHORITY FIGURES, THIS HAS BEEN SINCE BIRTH! YOU GO AROUND FOLLOWING YOUR LOGIC TO ENCOUNTERS WITH LAW ENFORCEMENT, YOU’RE PUTTING YOURSELF IN A POTENTIAL DANGEROUS SITUATION, THAT OFFICER WANTS TO LIVE… YOU JERK OFF!!!! YOU DISREGARD THE LAW,BREAK THE LAW AND YOU BELIEVE THAT THE OFFICER THAT’S BEING ATTACKED SHOULD ACCOMMODATE THE CRIMINAL AND FINGERS CROSSED….THE COP SHOULD HOPE FOR THE BEST!!! GET F*CKING REAL. ACT LIKE YOU HAVE SOME HOME TRAINING!!! OBEY THE LAW, SHIT IT’S SOOOOOK SIMPLE!!!!!!

  38. And ANOTHER thing… maybe BEING more concerned about the neighborhood dealers, child molesters, rapist, armed robbers that are committing these crimes ALL OVER OUR COUNTRY every second, THAT OUR POLICE ARE taking off the street, maybe it would be MORE productive!!! I never heard of ANYONE SAY ” I don’t wanna live there the police pct is really bad” !!! Average, hard working people don’t fear living in a neighborhood because of the cops!!!!!!

  39. we live in a world these days of arm chair quarterbacks. There is no way anyone should second guess the actions of this officer until all the facts are in. This includes shoot or no shoot. In Wisconsin we have a very fair system in place to make sure that the truth comes out as the DOJ is conducting the investigation.
    It doesn’t matter how well they are trained in empty hand force options. The officer from what is being reported had seconds to react once he entered the residents. Seconds before this young man charged him. As for shooting a leg or an arm. Anyone trained to carry a firearm knows that you must account for every round. Try to John Wayne a threat is reckless for two reasons :1. Doesn’t stop the threat. 2. Increases others getting hit by flying bullets. Lastly there are good and bad people in every line of work. I know many law enforcement officers and not one of them hopes for an opportunity to pull their side arm and kill somebody. They are more concerned about coming home at the end of there shift. This is a tragedy for everybody that was involved.

  40. that is spoken absolutely right!!!
    The police have a family they want to go home to.
    I’ll go to bet their is not one unarmed shooting where the cop high fives everyone he meets saying ” got that one good” most go through a lot of grief counseling.
    Just my opinion !!

  41. Shoot to kill?? You hear that term a lot and it’s not accurate. As a 32 year veteran officer I was never taught to shoot to kill. I was taught to shoot to eliminate the threat to my self and others. if a person is standing with a gun pointing at me and I shoot twice, if he still has the gun pointed at me I shoot again. Until the threat to myself and others is eliminated. We are not taught to “kill people” we are taught to eliminate the deadly threat created by another person. Can an unarmed person constitute a deadly threat? Yes, for sure. Every situation has to be totally examined to determine if deadly force was justified. Take Ferguson, MO. Early, inaccurate reports repeated, adnauseum, by the media were totally wrong. Later DNA tests convinced both state and federal investigators that Brown had actively tried to take the officers hand gun from him,. He wasn’t an innocent unarmed teen wearing headphones, as depicted by the media. National media presents totally unsubstantiated interviews, over and over again, just to hope to present their political slant to the issue, is not “freedom of the press”. Freedom of the press infers some common sense and responsibility are involved. We haven’t seen much of that lately.

  42. If you are met with an act of aggression against your person or property you should have every right to defend yourself with force equal to what is required to stop the assault, up to and including deadly force. You also retain the Right to not use deadly force. That is a Right; abdication of that Right is the false concept at work here. Thinking it’s ok to give that power, that responsibility, and that Authority to another (regardless of the justification) is diseased thinking IMO.

    If you believe that a police force has the Authority to kill, you are a slave/ prisoner. If you believe a police force has the Authority to give you orders that you must comply with or have violence used against you to make you comply, you are a slave/ prisoner. There is no other definition that fits. You are a slave. You are not free. Wake up.

  43. It is all too easy to judge police officers after the fact. They have to make a split second decision to react to a life threatening situation to protect their life or someone else’s. So let’s quit judging them until all the facts of a given situation are known. They have a tough job. Everybody wants to bitch about the police until you really need them, then their a godsend.

  44. You completely missed the point police are supposed to be trained they have other non lethal means of incapacitating something someone trained fighters don’t go around beating on people they have a badge and a gun they are supposed to be held to a higher standard put me the same situation I’ll be going to prison or the electric chair

    • There are less than lethal options but not all police departments and certainly not all police officers have them. As far as trained fighters attacking people, you should do a little research on that. It happens more than you know.

  45. If there weren’t ten thousand videos of entire groups of cops harassing, beating, stomping, tazing and shooting unarmed nonthreatening men, women, old people and often children your article might have some validity. Since the culture of unprovoked violence from police is well-documented on thousands of videos the cops couldn’t confiscate and destroy (as they so often do), you’re really just pissing on our heads and trying to convince us it’s raining. You knowing more about the rules of when to utilize deadly force doesn’t make everyone else idiots.

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