Shooting The Unarmed Man – The Fallacy Of Modern Perception

LEARN HOW RUSSIA INFLUENCES THE PATRIOT MOVEMENT – THE PATRIOT DECEPTION

“He shot an unarmed man!”

“He wasn’t armed! Police had no reason to shoot him!”

How often have we heard those screams from an angry community?  Trayvon Martin may be the first to come mind but it happens more often than most people think.  Kansas City firefighter Anthony Bruno, unarmed and drunk, was shot and killed by an off duty police officer.  And, of course, the most recent case of Michael Brown in St. Louis, Missouri.

The problem with the public outcry and the rioting in pursuit of “JUSTICE” is that most people know exactly nothing about physical combat and life threatening situations.  They assume that if a person is unarmed that deadly force cannot and should not be employed.  And they are wrong.

Have you seen the viral videos of “the knockout game?”  Many of those videos involve one solid blow to the head that results in an unconscious victim.  There is laughing and yelling and everyone runs away.  Well, what if they didn’t want to stop there?  What if the attacker decided that he would just kill someone today?  He now has an unconscious, helpless victim to beat to death.

Take the case of Michael Fobbs as an example.  He walked up to a man sitting on a bench and simply started hitting him repeatedly until the man was dead at an Amtrak station in Texas.  Would that victim have been authorized the use of deadly force? Fobbs was unarmed.

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Bear in mind that more people were beaten to death with hands and feet than were killed by so-called assault rifles in 2012.  Those victims were not allowed to use deadly force simply because their attacker did not have a weapon?  I think not.  Laws on self defense seldom mention the use of a weapon.  They are based on a reasonable fear that your life is in jeopardy, not the presence of a weapon in the hands of your attacker.

You may have missed the television programs on the science of fighting.  In that series, Randy Couture was studied.  In his well-known “ground and pound” method of dispatching an opponent, Couture was able to generate over 2,000 pounds of force in his downward blows to an opponent’s head.  That’s the equivalent of dropping a car on your face.  Trained fighters seldom take the full force of those blows because they are moving and defending with their own arms and hands but what if the victim was not a trained fighter?  Couture, and any other trained fighter, could kill you with just a couple of blows to the head.

The rise in popularity of Brazilian Jiu Jitsu and MMA style sports has also added new weapons to the attacker’s hands-only arsenal.  Have you ever been choked out?  In MMA sports, the defender can “tap out” or the referee can end the fight and pull the attacker off of you.  In the real world, you will be choked until you die.  That’s a real fight.

So, if your attacker is unarmed and gets you in a choke, is that it? You’re just going to let yourself die because you won’t use lethal force against an unarmed opponent?  How about if you are on your back being hammered in the face and you are moments away from losing consciousness and eventual death?  Just going to accept your fate?  I seriously doubt that.

I’m not.  If I’m armed, I’m going to kill you.  Dead.

If a cop walks up to someone out of the blue, draws his pistol, and shoots them dead in the street, that’s one thing.  But, shooting an unarmed assailant during a fight in the street is another.  You do not know the intentions of the attacker and cannot allow yourself to be overpowered or knocked unconscious.  You will only be another statistic.

You also have no idea if your attacker IS armed and they just haven’t used their weapon yet.  You can’t wait until you are unable to defend yourself to find out.  I suspect most of you reading this would not.  So, why are we judging a police officer who makes the same decision you would make under the same circumstances?

Get a reality check, folks.

Ross

373 thoughts on “Shooting The Unarmed Man – The Fallacy Of Modern Perception

  1. “So, why are we judging a police officer who makes the same decision you would make under the same circumstances?

    Get a reality check, folks.”

    – ummm I am not a trained member of the police force I freaking hope they make better decisions than I would . Jeeeezus.. If they don’t, well that is just pathetic!

    • Police officers, and soldiers for that matter, have the same right to self defense as normal citizens. I think people often forget that. They are not required to allow themselves to be harmed in the course of their duties.

      • That does not have anything to do with what I said. Of course they do but to say that we have no right to judge their decisions is not right. Our protection and rights are in their hands. They are trained for this. This is what they chose. They chose to have this responsibility on their shoulders. I think the statement “Why are we judging their decisions when they are the same we would make” is not valid. They aren’t the same as every day citizens. I would hope the police officer would be just a little bit more prepared to deal with a “situation” than Bob who cleans floors at the QT or the 18 yr. old college student. I am not anti-cop but there are definitely a lot out there that abuse their authority.

      • Sadly, our government has strict rules of engagement for soldiers. If people think cops have it bad read our governments guidelines for soldiers at war. It’s pretty pathetic and has caused the lives of some real heroes.

      • Often times people don’t understand that when protecting yourself that every situation has different scenarios and the regular joe could be ex military, gang street fighter, cop killer, trained in martial arts,
        trashed on drugs, ex cop, Joe next door. It’s possible to be beaten by anyone on any given day in any situation. And the only back-up to being beaten or killed is the sidearm. nobody knows what the assaulter is capable of doing in any situation. Hindsight is 20/20 but it never helps at the present time. Self defense is the only option. you will never be able to answer to why you didn’t fight back, if you’re dead.

      • Please don’t ever equate cops to military personnel ever again. It seriously doesn’t get any gayer than that. We engage force on force- meaning there’s 20 of them and 20 of us- and we are all armed and it’s perfectly legal to throw down. Cops…it’s usually 7-8 cops versus 1 guy, he’s not armed, and even if he was, it’s still illegal for him to start shooting. Oh and one more thing- we (Marines) don’t kill American citizens.

        Bitch please. You sleep in your own bed most nights. You play your games on your home field with superior assets. Stop trying to play like you’re in the suck, you’re not even close. Now run along gun-totin tough guy, those skateboarders and potheads aren’t gonna harass themselves.

      • But the problem people are bringing to light is that the police forces around the country are creating theses situations by using aggression first. In both of your first two cases, the kids were minding there own business before being harrassed.
        Don’t put yourself in danger then cry self-defense.

      • “Please don’t ever equate cops to military personnel ever again. It seriously doesn’t get any gayer than that. We engage force on force- meaning there’s 20 of them and 20 of us- and we are all armed and it’s perfectly legal to throw down. Cops…it’s usually 7-8 cops versus 1 guy, he’s not armed, and even if he was, it’s still illegal for him to start shooting. Oh and one more thing- we (Marines) don’t kill American citizens.”

        This is an ignorant statement. I’ve been a cop in a major city for years, it’s rare that I have 6 or 7 people with me. It’s usually just me and the bad guy. Now if I call for backup, I’ll have 6 or 7 guys there within a few minutes, but a few minutes is a LONG time when the fight is on. And it being illegal for the bad guy to try and shoot or stab me certainly hasn’t stopped a lot of them.

        And Marines don’t kill American citizens because Marines don’t police American citizens. Try to do our job with your training, and I dare say the streets would be quite a bit bloodier.

        “Bitch please. You sleep in your own bed most nights. You play your games on your home field with superior assets. Stop trying to play like you’re in the suck, you’re not even close. Now run along gun-totin tough guy, those skateboarders and potheads aren’t gonna harass themselves.”

        Calm down buddy. Everyone has a job to do, and no one is challenging you or acting like yours is irrelevant. I don’t pretend to understand what it’s like to be overseas in a combat zone, you shouldn’t pretend to understand what it’s like to police the streets of our home.

      • Cops get scared, they don’t know if someone is armed or not. OK sure, I buy that. Although I still feel like if you, as a cop, have your gun trained on someone that has they’re hands up, that lifted a pack of cigarettes, you move in to apprehend, you don’t shoot someone dead. These cops are too trigger happy.

      • So, if everyone — law enforcement employees to homeless people —  have the right to to self defense, including use of lethal force is what you are saying. Anyone can kill anyone freely regardless of the situation if only they perceive life threatening danger to themselves? They have no obligation to retreat? Or finding equitable solutions?

        Seriously, you are suggesting they only need to feel their life is threaten? That is a bunch of crap. If a person feels their life is in danger when getting stopped for a speeding ticket, they can kill a law officer justly? Clearly the officer has a lethal weapon and they have been trained to use their hands and batons to hurt, threaten, coerce and sometimes kill people. They probably are wearing body armor, so they are expecting combat. By your logic, at some point if the situation gets threatening enough, a person is justified to preemptively eliminate that deadly threat regardless of their job, because as you point out, “normal citizens” have the right to self defense.

        Rodney King should have just killed the officers because he has the right to self defense? Or are “normal citizens” require to be harmed in the course of their daily life, and only police officers can hold the right to lethal self defense regardless of the situation.

        This article is absurd. Not once in your rambling random example-to-example jumping article did you point out the fact that officers have a range of non-lethal force to combat perceived threats. How is it, the British police generally govern crime in so many way without carrying guns?

        Truth is, all people can be criminals. Police, priests, children, moms, dads, saints and sinners. The most dangerous will hide among you. Law enforcement has an obligation to hold themselves to a higher standard, and if they can’t, take off the badge and find another job. And for the record, my family has a police, firefighters, and military officers in it.

        Your comment and this article are insulting insular dribble to many fine law officers and military.

      • Exactly. If someone comes after you, you have a right to self defense. Period. You shouldn’t have to risk your live a little bit more, or a lot more, because of what you are wearing. Now, as you said above, those who take their authority out of
        context should be dealt with in a court of law, be it civilian or military.

      • No, they don’t have the same right to self defense. They should be directed to try harder than citizens to handle unarmed threats without lethal force. That’s why police officers have tasers, pepper spray and a baton. None of which officer Wilson chose to even try to deploy.

      • Sgt T USMC sounds like a roided out POG. Congrats, you’re a Marine. Doesn’t mean you know shit about law enforcement. I was a grunt. Means I’m great at shooting a gun, means I know nothing about domestic policing.

        Sgt T, you’re a fucking tool. Stop making Marines look bad.

      • Retired Marine and currently a State Trooper. Good read Ross. Thanks for pointing out the obvious that is lost to many soft skinned types…

      • Sgt T USMC, after a fashion, I agree. I respect the USMC IMMENSELY.. HOWEVER, over 90% of police encounters are one on one, NOT force on force as you put it. Officers often have to wait 5 to 30 minutes for ONE backup unit, and have to deal with life or death ALONE. It’s not “Last Man Standing” It is “ONLY MAN or WOMAN standing”! (With the greatest respect for Marcus Lutrell.)

        So no, DO NOT COMPARE military action with civilian policing. It’s unfair to the police and an INVALID comparison. Apples and cantaloupes…

        I agree totally with joe… Been there myself….

        And the young lady “Dawn” who said, “I am not anti-cop but there are definitely a lot out there that abuse their authority.”

        So you have a great deal of experience reading and studying after action reports and police encounters with armed and unarmed assailants? Your statement says you are not anti-cop, but YOU ARE MOST OBVIOUSLY ANTI-COP!

        99.8% of the officers I have worked with are family men and women and want to go home in peace. No bloodthirsty officers are out there as you seem to assume.

        I suggest “Dawn” sign up with the local PD for a ride along to SEE what the officers deal with day to day. “Sgt T USMC”, you should too. NEITHER of you seems to really understand civilian policing.

        I, on the other hand, do understand military action, and the comparison is quite unfair. You bring shame and ignorance along with you in your ruck? Are you some supply POG Sgt T?

        And Ms. “Dawn”, the only people who have a right to judge are the Courts, the Constitution protects that officer in Ferguson MO as surely as it protects you and I, We all have a right to a trial by a jury of our peers when accused of a crime. We have the right to be innocent until PROVEN guilty. NO ONE seems to remember that when the police are involved.

      • Excellent article Ross Elder. I expect some backlash from using a pseudonym myself, but I am a former police officer with a right to protect my anonymity for my and my family’s safety.

        Keep up the good work sir!

    • yep pathetic, that after he was beaten once, to the point of a fractured skull, he was supposed to try and take on a man 100 pounds heavier, with one eye more then likely swelled shut, just because he is a trained officer? So IO guess what you are saying that if they are an officer, and have training, then they should be able to whip ANYONES ASS THAT COMES ALONG? Regardless of size, regardless of the other persons training, regardless of anything, because they are a trained officer of the law, they are able to whip anybody? Right? yeah ok.. He made a better decision then you would, he decided he was going to let some 6’4″ 300 pound guy whip his ass again! Good decision.

      • @Gary Duane – Oh – you were there??!! We DO NOT know what happened, we DO NOT know he had a fractured skull or that he was even attacked. Stop arrogantly presuming to be judge, jury and executioner.

      • T sgt,
        You sir are quite frankly an embarrassment. Your arrogance and hate filled homophobic speech is so far beneath the standards expected of an nco of the USMC. I also sincerely doubt you are a very good marine. Your claim that the military fights “force on force” is ludicrous. Maybe you didn’t pay attention when you were covering battle drills but the us military doctrine suggests that our engagements should be 3 to 1 or better. Additionally we fight with drastically superior equipment that many of our enemy’s have no hope of countering, ie the hellfire missile fired from a predator drone, or apache attack helicopter. Have you ever conducted an ambush, you know the one where we initiate with the most casualty producing weapon and pound the enemy into dust.
        I have served in the military, over seas, I also am a law enforcement officer, there are MANY parallels. Especially now when our military primarily does police style work rather than full spectrum fully permissive roe operations.
        The reality is simply this. We don’t know enough to make any judgments. We have the witness account of a young man who has already been proven to be a liar. We then have many conflicting accounts of what people saw.
        If the officer indeed shot brown surrendering he was wrong and deserves punishment. If he was in a fight in his car and had been punched in the face and had injury and fought to maintain possession of his weapon as some reports have suggested, he very well was justified in defending his life.
        To the moron who didn’t read the article the writer mentioned a REASONABLE belief that their life is in danger not the arbitrary whatever tickles your fancy belief that your life was in danger. The Supreme Court has already defined the use of force standard being what a reasonable officer would do in the same situation and acknowledges that hindsight can not be considered. Additionally they do have the same right to self defense per the US Supreme Court…. There is no legal requirement to try taser, baton etc before using lethal force. Once someone tries to take your gun it is a lethal force situation, meaning you don’t deploy less lethal.
        I realize nothing I am saying will change your minds. You obviously don’t want to educate yourself on the actual realities of the world or lethal force. This article is well written and absolutely correct.

      • As I see it,,, when a criminal is told to STOP, then, if he has a single brain cell, he’ll stop. IF he doesn’t stop, then the officer doesn’t have a half hour to check the rule book to see if he should tas the criminal, talk to him like a little kid, get him a cup of coffee or shoot if necessary,,, Remember he only has a half hour to decide…then it is, where to shoot, left leg, right leg, pass one over his head….in the meantime, the criminal is pullling a gun from his back or hidden in his shoe or hat…..now, all you smart asses,,, what would do, go get him a coke or a cup of coffee and a donut ???

      • I agree with this article 110%!! I know MANY officers, city, county, and state! What NO ONE remembers when they call for “justice” in these cases is that the officer in question also has a FAMILY at home that is praying they come home safe everyday! They have CHILDREN that need them! It is NOT the OFFICERS fault if someone is to stupid to follow a simple order like “put your hands in the air”, seriously! Even my TWO YEAR OLD can listen to an order that simple!

        Ofc&soldier- I respect you, sir!

    • Well, Dawn as a “trained Police Officer” myself I think you have a misconception of what type of training we actually receive. First let me say that I’m an officer in a police department in a city in Texas with close to a million people with 7 years experience. I’m 5′ 10″ and about 225#. So, I’m not a little guy, but I’m not that big compared to a 6′ 4″ nearly 300# man as in the Michael Brown / Ferguson case. The “training” that we receive so often has more to do with report writing and don’t profile people than it does fighting, shooting, driving. Believe me I wish we got more but we just don’t as budget is always the biggest concern. (And most of us do go on our own time and on our own money for training that our departments won’t fund). I am not a one man kung fu, ninja, navy seal, SWAT team, MAA fighter. I work 40 hours a week, plus a part time job to make ends meet, I have a wife and kids, hobbies to keep my sanity, sleep, drive to work, go to the gym, so theres not any time for me to train to be so. All that being said I’m still not bullet proof and I’m still subject to getting overpowered by someone bigger, stronger, on drugs, trained in fighting, or multiple suspects. Which means sometimes I may have to go straight to shooting my way out of a bad situation. Obviously it’s not the ideal solution, but sometimes it’s the necessary one. From the sound of it I take that you have not ever been in a similar situation to fight for your life against (again Michael Brown case) someone who can overpower you and crack your skull with his bear hands. As I have been in situations like that (not as severe) I can tell you that even with the training things don’t go to plan and it can quickly turn into a deadly force situation. To top all that off if people acted the way they were supposed to none of this would happen in the first place.

      • Thank you for your service TRC! I don’t think Dawn understands the split second decisions that police and the military have to do in order to survive. I would imagine she is also against normal law abiding citizens to have guns….SMH

      • Pd as well and couldn’t have said it any better. Unfortunately the misconception is that we as police offiers are paid to risk our lives and die. Bottom line, we are paid to enforce the law, but not at the cost of our lives. I’m going home to my family… no matter what!

      • Amen Fellow Blue LIner! If you are a trained MMA type of fighter an use it to defend yourself youy are using to much force.then you are in court for the next 5 or so years defending the fact that you were only protecting yourself against some shytbag that was up to some thuggery.

      • Seems to me that the officers on the post that have commented has brought up a point that a lot of have been saying. They are severely under resourced and trained to effectively to the job, so when put in situations as this one, they are not educated enough to handle them any other way.

      • So now we want our police, the people we pay to enforce the law, to run away from criminals if they are violent or intimidating? With that logic, all the violent criminals would remain on the street to victimize more people. Your suggestion is about half ignorant.

        That’s like telling our military to go to war but if the enemy starts shooting at them to retreat and hide in their bases. Here’s a hint – that’s what most of our supposed allies do and that’s why we keep carrying the bulk of the load in every conflict.

      • Well said TRC. Dawn mentions Bob and the 18 year old college student, but what would she say about a behemoth violent robber who was attacking an officer? No mention of that! If that officer wanted to execute a black man, why would he not have just run over the two while they were walking down the middle of the street?

      • My father is an officer in a city in the state of washington. He works in the one of the top 5 worst cities in the state and he knows how dangerous things can get, especially with all the drugs that are up here. My father once got injured on the job because he had to tackle and beat a man down who was high on weed, and was robbing a subway with a gun for cookies because he was hungry. His buddy got shot in the arm and the man was beaten badly. My father made his knuckles raw from the beating. Sometimes they have to do things that are necessary to keep the public safe (in that case the cashier at subway who happened to be the man’s ex girlfriend). TRC, I know that in today’s society everyone hates officers and calls them pigs and spits at you and sometimes makes empty threats and I just want to say that I want to thank you for what you are doing. No one ever appreciates officers but I do. I know what sacrifices you have to make everyday you go to work and it’s a tough job that sometimes doesn’t pay enough. (My father was barely making end’s meet in his SO job back in california) If I wasn’t a jobless teen, I’d probably buy you are your family dinner but I can’t because well i’m poor and live in a different state, haha. Tell everyone you work with that I appreciate them and their service. It’s not an easy job.

      • P.S. Pascal Redfern : If he had retreated, not only would his robbery suspect have gotten away but he just let a danger to the public go free. They aren’t allowed to do that and therefore he had to terminate the threat before it caused any more harm to the public. The safety of the public comes first. Aside from the officer’s.

      • This is a response to Spyro:

        A man in NYC on the subway in 2011 was stabbed by an attacker while 2 transit officers in the motorman’s booth did nothing. The officers only arrested the attacker after the man subdued his own attacker. And when he sued the city over it, he lost, as the police had no “special duty” to come to his aid.

        That seems worse than retreating, that’s not even intervening in the 1st place, and yet, in NYC at least, that’s deemed perfectly acceptable.

      • I may have missed it somewhere in some of the liberal babble, and I do appreciate Ross and the other blue line brothers who bravely contributed, but one thing the public fails to realize is every encounter with a LEO IS AN ARMED ENCOUNTER!!! It does not matter what level agency you work for from the smallest po-dunk PD, to large metro agencies, state, or federal level, every police encounter is an armed encounter.

        So not only do we have to worry about being beat unconscious or to death, we have to protect our weapon to keep it from being used on us and others.

        Another interesting point, the weapon I wear everyday and the back-up I carry are for my protection, not yours.

      • In looking at both sides I have to believe that a Officer Always needs to cover their backs in any given situation. They have to think about the worst in a situation because there are so many coco’s out there, it’s always a risk for the officer, they are only doing their job.That’s that! God Bless them ALL!

      • God Bless you TRC. Thank you for your service. You are the only responder who makes any sense in my book. No one knows how they will react when they are fearful of attacks. Prayers for your protection and your family.

    • Your article is so off. You bring up instances where the victims were unsuspecting they were about to attack and compare it to an armed officer with non-deadly options and hand to hand training

      • Sounds like you are speaking from experience. But I suspect not. So, tell me, how much hand to hand combat training do cops get in the police academy? And, when being attacked, what non-lethal tools are available to officers in Ferguson, Missouri?

        Please tell me the prescribed response when being beaten about the face and neck. We all want to know.

      • And if you are being beaten to a pulp? Then what?

        And being an academy graduate myself, NO police academy does 3 full months of daily training I hand to hand combat. The combined H2H training, in total hours, for my class was less than one full week.

      • @Sarah, another one so clueless. 3 whole months of defensive tactics, oh yeah, must be a black belt. Mace, taser, baton, not so easy to use when engaged in hand to hand combat. Fight back with your hands? If I lose and get knocked out or otherwise incapacitated, bad guy gets my gun, shoots me and who knows who else. When attacked, the bad guy obviuosly has no respect for the law, therefore, this is a fight I CANNOT lose.

      • When an officer of the law tells you to stop, you stop.If they tell you to put your hands on the dashboard you put your hand on the dashboard. And if you’re smart you say yes sir or yes ma’am.

      • I guess if people want their police to have the training to fight someone that much bigger than them, they should be prepared to pay the taxes. Oh wait… That’s right, no one wants to pay public safety well or pay for the training/ equipment that is needed! They just want to complain that they SHOULD have the training. Four days of defensive tactics out of 3 months plus maybe a day each year for in service training. How in the hell do you expect your law enforcement to win these encounters. Have you ever been pepper sprayed or tased? Pepper spray only pisses off the person receiving it. And you’re able to get up and fight again after the 5 seconds. You all have to be kidding me! Non-lethal options?! Not when 300 lbs is on top of you beating your face in then rushing back at you. It’s obvious none of you making these comments have ever even been punched in the face.

        If you don’t want to stand behind your law enforcement officers then feel free to stand in front of us.

      • There is nothing wrong with retreating and waiting for backup. The military isn’t too good to regroup but macho tough guy cowards with a Glock 22 know they have a crutch to lean on if they get their butt kicked. To save his ego, Wilson became a killer. He’s a coward with a gun. There’s nothing worse than a coward with a gun. There’s no shame in not being able to physically control a 300lb kid, radio for backup, wait, tada, everyone involved would still be alive. But Wilson’s who couldn’t take that.

      • There many factors that come into play regarding Use of Force. Size, skill and number of subjects are big factors in how an officer responds to a situation. Based on current information given, if Michael Brown had already assaulted Wilson and was charging, he didn’t have time to pull a TASER or pepper spray. Look up the 21 foot rule. You can close a 21 foot gap in less than a second, so was Wilson just supposed to take a beating or run away. LEOs don’t do that. They are trained to try to keep the upper hand in every situation.

        As for the notion of “shoot him in the leg” i keep hearing, LEOs aren’t trained to shoot to wound. The first lesson you get on firearms is “Don’t point your weapon at something you don’t intend to destroy.” The firearm is for a deadly force situation. Wilson had 2 suspects and one of them was way bigger than him. Wilson made the right decision for the situation.

      • If someone gets danger close to me, it’s exactly that…danger close. Draw weapon and shoot…simple.

      • Curtis, RETREAT IS NOT AN OPTION when you’re being pinned into your car by a fully grown adrenaline hyped man who outweighs you by over 100 pounds. In that situation, not even a strategic withdrawal is possible.

    • Trained members of the police force are not experts in hand to hand combat. Size and weight difference is also a factor, hence the weight divisions in professional combat sports. There are plenry of examples where “unarmed ” people kill other people.

    • You’re right dawn LEO’s are trained to know when to make that better decision. He chose life. His training worked. You have not a clue what you are talking about. LEO’s are trained. That does not make them invincible. When someone makes the conscious decision to take on/assault a police officer, they are accepting being shot. They pulled the trigger themselves. LEO’s chose that life. Correct. And they still have the right to go home.

    • I’m not a trained member of a police force either but you are stupid lady. Everyone has a right to protect themselves, even a cop that had already been attacked and over powered once by this thug. I would had reloaded and shot him ten more times. Got what he had coming.

    • When you are in fear for your life, all the training in the world is rarely much help. You have one goal, to stay alive and stop the aggressor in any manner possible. Someone willing to kill you probably isn’t following any rules. So if I had a gun and some huge guy just batted the hell out of me and then charged again, I am shooting until I run out of bullets.

    • “Our protection and rights are in their hands.”
      no
      not really
      your protection and rights are in your hands, no cop or soldier or any public servant ever holds your life and freedom in their hands over yours. you are the bottom line. if you choose to not carry a weapon in our world then you can kiss your rights and life goodbye if you ever get attacked.

    • So what’s your sollution? Engage in a MMA fight on the street and just hope you win? LOL, It’s too late for you; you’re really stupid.

    • When your life is on the line, you do the first thing that comes to mind. I just hope you make the right choice if your life is ever on the line. You my not get a second chance.

    • In reply to response below about citizens choosing to be in this responsibility and having to to be held to a higher standard: First of all that is fucking ridiculous, you are taking the human out of the profession. Cops aren’t robots (yet), the fact that they have been trained the best they can does not mean there is no room for error. I am sure you make mistakes in your field, you just took the easy way out and chose a field that didn’t mean encountering life and death situations everyday. You can have all the training in the world but that will never change the human emotions and reactions that we all have. Some cops are shitty and abuse their power and we all get that (it isn’t just cops by the way) but I don’t know what kind of magical training you think these people get because they sure as hell aren’t getting lessons on the 101 of not having emotional reactions while living your life and carrying out your jobs or introduction into how never to make a mistake when you are faced with deciding who lives either yourself or the someone else. You say that “they aren’t the same as everyday citizens”, but THEY ARE, THEY ARE EVERYDAY CITIZENS ALL OF THEM with families they want to come home to and communities they try their best to preserve. There is no one in the world that can do that job perfectly and we can’t expect them to. They will make mistakes and they will pay for them (the cop that shot Michael Brown will have a trial like every other criminal and if he doesn’t then we should protest that) but we shouldn’t expect them to be the almighty and perfect because in that profession there is just no way, they are taught all the basics and then they are taught to when a situation comes up that you haven’t dealt with before to quickly (like in a second) make the decision that they feel is most right. You have obviously never been faced with a decision like that one where you can change your whole life in an instant based on one decision and it doesn’t seem like you would ever want to because its scary and its scary for them to. Just don’t forget even though we call them cops, and police officers underneath the uniform they are people and it is just unrealistic to hold anyone to the standards that you are trying to hold them to.

    • Don’t ever compare cops to the military. In many cases, it is seriously insulting to police officers.

    • Well Dawn, they do make better decisions than you. They take action before their opponent can disarm or disable them. That is why they are still alive and you, my dear, would be DEAD.

    • Dawn, what do you think “trained” means if a cop believes he’s fighting for his life? Is he supposed to have some secret knowledge and techniques that allow him to overpower an assailant – especially someone who sucker-punches him. Is he supposed to spends hours each week practicing some sort of martial art? Doesn’t happen. Won’t happen.
      I believe that the first time an assailant strikes or raises any weapon against another person, cop or civilian, he should be dead meat, cooling off in the street. Crime should be a dangerous occupation and assault should result in unanticipated, nasty surprises. I support stand your ground laws; I believe they make people more courteous in dealing with others.
      That being said, the law is generally a bit tighter than that in its requirements for establishing self-defense.

  2. I would like to say I think this is a very good article though, with the exception of that line! 🙂

    • Dawn,you as a citizen or a cop accidentally drive upon an armed robbery in progress Two victims on the ground,3 men standing nearby 1 with a gun. Gun man gets into a vehicle and leaves. The 2 men who were standing near him start walking toward you..Help us…the gun man kidnapped us. They have their hands in the air. What are you going to do?. I bet you dont answer this.But I would be so happy to hear your explanation even if you are JOE THE RAG MAN !

      • This is to Sarah Leona Ramsey since I can’t reply direct to her…. How do you know the two walking towards you are ACTUALLY hostages? They WEREN’T! You just left two victims with two bad guys. Way to go, because the bad guys killed the two laying on the ground.

  3. Dawn, I too think this was a very good article. I think I understand your point. I believe law enforcement is often better qualified to make those type decisions than an “untrained” average “Joe”. You might have taken it a little to specifically.
    How ever I do have a concern with one of your statements. “Our protection and rights are in their hands.” If this is what you believe I hope you never get assaulted in anyway. Your protection is in your hands. Police don’t follow you around to protect you. They come after the fact and hopefully catch the criminal before the “next” victim. Also believing police will protect your rights is really a far cry from reality.
    I don’t know you from a hole in the wall but I hope you will take your own safety & “protection” seriously and don’t rely on others.

  4. It’s not to say that we should not judge. It is to say that we should judge based upon the facts. Too many times judgement is passed before the investigation has begun and the true facts are presented. We are quick to condemn the officer because, “he should be more highly trained” than the average citizen, and that is true. But the average citizen doing the judging has no idea what the officer has been trained on and what he has not. (shoot to wound, give a warning shot)

    We all need to humble ourselves and be patient until the investigation is complete and the true facts become known.

    • Shoot to wound!!!! What you are no police officer and younhave been watching to many movies!!! Shoot to wound and you will be dead or the defence attorney will say why did you shoot my client and only wound him was your life really in danger!!! I thought you were taught officer only draw your weapen if your life or someone elses life is in danger!!!! Let me educate you a knife is deadly why because it cuts going in and cuts comming out!!! So here is your cituation you are called for a man with a knife. You arrive on the scene you draw your weapon and order the suspect to drop the knife. He is 10 feet from you he lunges at you what do you do?

      • let me answer this for you, You pedal back fireing your weapon at the suspects center mast untill you incompasitate his actions. because if you fight him hand to hand he stabs you once now the suspect might get your weapon from you and shoot you in the head. the knife wound you will proably bleed out before help can get there to save your life. I love my wife and no one is going to keep me from going home and love my family!!!! this is our training back ois on its way but you have duty to protect and serve so if you run away and the suspect stabs a citizen you better get a good lawer. WAKE UP PEOPLE YOU TALK ALL THIS JUNK AND YOU HAVE NO CLUE WHAT THE JOB INTALES.

    • Just remember gene….what goes up must come down…….what if that “warning shot” comes down and hits your loved one????

  5. In the many if not the majority of the states in this country, a lawfully armed civilian who shoots an unarmed person under ANY circumstances will be forced to prove that his/her life was in actual jeopardy. Why were you brandishing a firearm? Why didn’t you meet your legal obligation to attempt to retreat (for those not only without castle doctrine or stand your ground considerations but also have to attempt to flee or possibly face being accused of premeditation)? Police don’t have to meet that criteria. All a cop has to say is “He went for my gun”. Barring any contrary physical evidence, he walks. Me? I’d be fighting the possibility of going to jail until I died or at the very least going bankrupt thanks to attorney fees. THAT is a reality check.

    • One benefit the police often have is the presence of dashcam or bodycam video and audio evidence. Civilians don’t usually have that technology. So, it is often easier to judge a police action as justified than it would be a civilian incident. Police also have representation provided either by the department or their union.

    • One thing no one in this thread seems to be taking into consideration is that a police officer’s job is not to retreat. He is tasked with continuing the confrontation and PURSUING the criminal. I would suggest that if it were a civilian in the Brown situation rather than a police officer, a civilian would have straightened up in his car (of course he wouldn’t have stopped to investigate a crime to begin with) and drive away as fast as possible. A police officer is REQUIRED to confront unknown people in unknown (but usually already dangerous/inflammatory situations) and NOT RETREAT but continue to pursue and arrest the individual. And what do they get for stepping into danger every day? Bottles of urine thrown on them.

    • I agree. I’m not going to judge every officer by one standard, and say what is right and what is wrong. I will say this, everyone has a right to life. Even people who make bad decisions. A police officer is entrusted with the safety and dignity of the citizens they are charged with protecting. You cannot initiate an encounter without probable cause. This case was initiated because two guys where walking in the street and now one of them is dead. The excuse, we don’t know. The facts, we don’t know. All we know is that someone is dead and it began with walking in the street. That does not strike anyone as absurd? What’s next, selling cigarettes will get you killed.

  6. Pingback: Question about becoming a police officer and carrying guns? - Page 2

  7. One other aspect that has been overlooked is how police officers are trained. I have gone through 27 years of firearms qualifications and each time we qualify we train 2 rounds to the chest, one to the head, then 1 to the chest and 2 to the head. We are also trained not to stop shooting until the threat is over.
    Again it is unfortumate in todays world that civilians who have never walked a day on the beat or had a serious confrontation with a criminal can pass judgement, ridicule, condemn,persecute and judge those who police our streets and protect the public.

  8. If cops are tasked with pursuing the criminal then shouldn’t the be tasked to do do with reasonable control? And out of curiosity, how many of y’all in this post/thread are black?

    • Exactly Lisa! I’m sorry but there is no reason why a 17yr old unarmed kid needed to be shot 6 TIMES (2X’s to the head) and then left in the street for SEVERAL HOURS like some dead animal..the way people rationalize things anymore is truly screwed up!

      • So, he is 17 now?

        No, he was 18. A legal adult. Stop trying to portray an 18 year old, 6’3″, 290 pound man as a kid. I was overseas with the Army at 18. I was no kid.

      • Evidently you have never seen what a 5’7″ 150 lb man on PCP or Cocaine can do to another person, let alone a 6’4″ 300lb man can do. I’m NOT saying that Mike was on any drugs I don’t know, but neither did the officer!

      • No reason for the kid to rob a store or attack a cop either. He met his own fate. It’s a little different being the cop and not knowing what is fixing to happen and having seconds to protect your life than it is sitting behind a computer and knowing all the facts and saying what you would have done

      • It’s a crime scene and working Ems in ferguson and St. Louis for 12 years the body lies there in all shootings for hours while police conduct there investigation the ME rarely comes to the scene to get the victim

      • He was not shot six times…the preliminary autopsy and the autopsy performed by the family’s forensic examiner said six wounds. It also stated that three of the wounds were created by the same bullet, as well as two others were created by the same bullet. Meaning he was shot three times…and only three bullets were recovered from the body. Forensic evidence also showed that one shot that penetrated his eye ricochet off his jaw, exited and entered his upper chest…there is only one way the jaw lines up with an eye socket – in a head-forward charge…the second shot to the top of his skull was likely the follow-up shot penetrating the top of his head after the first eye shot lowered it. Officers are taught to fire in controlled pairs, thus resulting in the two strikes to the skull…

        Quit drinking the kool-aid, learn to be objective, take emotion out of your equation, and realize that despite what witnesses see, their perspectives are different and are colored by judgement of what they think happened to fill in the gaps…they also hear what others say and summarily say the same thing…why else are there so many conflicting accounts of what happened, and why even the “eyewitness”accounts don’t match up as to how Brown was surrendering.

        The forensic evidence doesn’t lie…the 300lb ADULT was doing a linebacker charge…not standing upright …if had been standing, surrendering, that round to the eye would have blown out the back of his head, dropped him instantaneously,with no way to have shot him in the top of his head.

    • Seriously? What aspect of a persons skin color has anything what so ever to do with this conversation? Zero and nothing.

      • oK AGAIN YOU HAVE BEEN WATCHING TO MANY MOVIES!!! Six shots lets look at this did you see the picture of the coroner report! only two rounds were fatel the two to the head for your information those were the last two shots. Stop trying to think you know how fast a person falls down and stops fighting. 300lbs running on you. the officer was pedalling backwards shooting at the same time. getting shot yopu do not fall right away unless it is a head shot then maybe anything else it may take more than SIX ROUNDS. How about this why did’nt mr inocent lay down in the street and comply with the officers orders why did he run towards the officer with his weapon drawn. WELL YOU MAKE ME SICK !!!! no one is saying except my Brothers and Sisters in blue on here why did he fight the police officer. and just lay down and comply. I will answer that for you he just strong arm robbed a store and no one was going to stop him. Well someone did and saved many lives because of it. I bet if someone was kicking down your front door and the police arrive and he draws a knife on the police and they are shot, You are not going to worry how many times the suspect was shot!! You are going to thank that officer for saving your life.

  9. Ok so he’s a year older so it’s ok? Still doesn’t explain why they were shot 6X’s and then just left in the street.

    • He was left in the street because a full, detailed, thorough investigation was being performed. They have one chance to do that investigation and do it right. That is the same for any shooting unless there are extenuating circumstances (weather conditions destroying the scene, for example). Based upon what has apparently been told by several witnesses including the man with Brown, Mr a brown attacked the officer. The officer was severely injured and partially incapacitated. Mr Brown ran or walked away a short distance, then turned and began charging towards the officer, if this is in fact what occurred, and an investigation will determine if this is true or not, the incapacitated officer would have shot until the threat to his life was stopped. You and I can not know what happened. Emotions will not make it be one way or the other. Hatred will not make it be one way or the other. The incident happened and it only happened one way. Like it or don’t like it, it happened the way it happened. Everyone needs to settle down, let the investigation be conducted, let the witnesses be questioned and put through lie detectors if needed. Then everyone needs to accept the facts even if it isn’t a what the want it to be. That is everybody…on all sides.

    • Kristen then become an Officer and show them how a shooting situation should be handled. Like it or not the shooting was justified

      • @Debbie I can see your point, but I just have a hard time understanding how you shoot some in the head twice and then need to shoot four more times? Witnesses are saying Brown had his hands up and then others are saying he charged at the officer.. I guess we’ll find out as the investigation continues…@Joel I’m no officer but I don’t think I would need to shoot an unarmed person twice in the head and then four more times..all I’m saying is that I think it’s kind of excessive but what the hell do I know..it’s just unfortunate that this kind of thing will continue to happen because that’s the world we live in

      • “I just have a hard time understanding how you shoot some in the head twice and then need to shoot four more times?”

        If that is what had happened, then it might be difficult to understand. But that is NOT what happened. According to the coroner’s report, the four shots to the chest/arm happened first, and when that did not stop the attack, then the officer shot him in the head.

        All of the impartial witness reports I have seen say that Michael Brown was attacking the officer. The only ones I have seen that say otherwise were from Mr. Brown’s friend and his mother (who wasn’t there).

    • Kristen. Have you considered that the two in the head were the last two shots not the first. I have done the “charging man” drill with simunitions (paint filled rounds) and it was wild and woolly. It’s as upsetting as you can imagine. From 25 feet he got to me half the time. You have draw, aim and fire. As others have said, shooting until your attacker goes down is the training doctrine. It’s the best chance at surviving.

      If someone is intent enough to square off and rush you when you are armed, their intent to do you harm is clear (as bad a decision as it is for them). You are not required to hold fire and hope for the best.

      • John Ryan – I agree.
        Kristen, no you definitely don’t know. This may be a poor example but I’ve seen people who are terrified of spiders stomp on one 10 times just to make sure it won’t move again. An officer’s goal every single day is to go home. Under circumstances like what the Ferguson officer experienced, I believe that he feared for his life and I don’t see that he had any other options. People have said mace, taser, baton, etc. but I believe he did what he needed to do and I don’t think it was excessive, either. I like what Ross Elder said in an earlier comment: “…he was 18. A legal adult. Stop trying to portray an 18 year old, 6’3″, 290 pound man as a kid. I was overseas with the Army at 18. I was no kid.” All you hear on the news is that he was an “unarmed kid”. No, he was an unarmed, huge beast of a man who had no respect for the law or the police. I just can’t believe how many people would rather rally around a criminal than a man who risks his life every day to keep people safe from criminals.

      • Kristen he was not shot in the head first he was shot 4 times in the arm in an upward direction this is consitent with him running towards the officer the two next rounds hit him in the head why because brown was lets say 3 or 4 feet from the officer. very hard to shoot someone running up on you!!!!!

    • I have stood next to people who were killed for multiple hours waiting for investigative forces to be aligned to make sure it is done correctly and thoroughly. Additionally as stated multiple times he was shot 6x because that is what it took to stop the threat. Even the witnesses trying to hang the officer state he stopped firing when he fell down. It takes about 1.5 seconds to fire 6 rounds and since the 4 to the arm probably had no effect it makes sense to shoot more rounds.

    • He wasn’t shot six times…he had six bullet wounds…some of those wounds are exit and re-entry wounds according to the preliminary coroner’s report.

  10. For someone to be considered to be a threat of death or grave bodily injury to you they have to have three things; The Ability to cause your death or grave bodily injury, the Opportunity to cause your death or grave bodily injury, and do something to make you Reasonably believe that you are in Jeopardy.

    Ability generally means a weapon, but it also includes ‘Disparity of Force’ where the levels of force between the two parties are unequal. A 6’5″ 300 pound man represents a disparate amount of force against most other people just because of his size and weight.
    As was noted in the article above in 2010-2012 Three times as many people were killed by ‘unarmed’ people than by rifles. Three times as many than rifles.
    So how is an unarmed person NOT dangerous?

    Of the officers that are shot and killed each year, approximately 20% are killed with their own guns when they are overpowered by their assailant. Three days before I’m writing this, a police office was killed with his own gun. Interesting timing, in light of the Ferguson situation, but it never made the national news. Just another cop killed. Yawn.

    I don’t know if the officer was justified in shooting Michael Brown. Neither do you. We don’t have enough information yet. If you think you know, you are wrong. But there is a good chance that it might have been justifiable.

  11. Police are scrum and deserve to be killed. Nobody cares about police sob stories whining about how they don’t deserve to get beaten to death when they resort to a firearm so quickly. Author should do the world a favor and hang himself with a belt.

    • Therapist you have to be one of the dumbest asshole that ever walked no policeman should be killed by anyone and as far as scum you should know you see one every day when you look in the mirror i just don’t believe that your mother let you live.

    • Therapist- you are a complete moron! I want the officer, to whom I am RELATED, to come home. The officer I am related to has children, all under the age of 10 and he is the ONLY person with a job in the house. What you are saying is that all these MOTHERS and FATHERS, SONS and DAUGHTERS should be killed because they choose to PROTECT our streets? Can your ignorance be any greater? I want my cousin to come home every night! He choose to protect ALL of us against these “innocent” criminals and I respect him (and every other officer, past, present, and future)! They are doing their JOB! If a person has broken into your home and has taken you and all your loved ones hostage, just who do you think you will be PRAYING for? THE POLICE!! Because they will LAY DOWN THEIR LIVES to save your ignorant ass!!

      Oh, and just so that EVERYONE knows, YES I HAVE BEEN ARRESTED before! YES I HAVE HAD A GUN POINTED AT ME by an OFFICER! And guess what? I WAS SMART ENOUGH TO FOLLOW THEIR ORDERS! That is why I am sitting here laughing at every single ignorant response on here rather than being six feet under! It REALLY, HONESTLY does NOT take that many brain cells to understand orders as simple as “hands in the air”, “drop your weapon”, “get down on the ground” etc!! If a person doesn’t listen to an officer, then they KNOW they are going to be shot! Therefore, the CRIMINAL CHOOSE TO DIE rather than listen. That’s not the officer’s fault, he gave warning (no, I was not there, I didn’t see it myself, but EVERY officer gives warning, period), the ADULT CRIMINAL did not LISTEN! I mean, seriously, if an officer pulls up when your doing stupid shit, you automatically KNOW that you are FUCKED! By God, if I was to charge an officer, I would be expecting to be shot and killed! It’s only COMMON SENSE… oh wait… I forgot… most of you on here OBVIOUSLY are lacking in the regard… my bad! LOL

      If you don’t like our Law Enforcement and you don’t like our Military, PLEASE LEAVE OUR COUNTRY!

      RESPECT TO ALL LAW ENFORCEMENT AND MILITARY PERSONAL! One protects us here at home while the other protects us where ever they are needed, two very different jobs that have the same purpose… TO SAVE OUR ASSES!! If it weren’t for you guys, our country wouldn’t be safe nor would our streets! You all do a HELL OF A GOOD JOB! Thank you!

      OH, yeah, I’m related to LAW ENFORCEMENT and MILITARY PERSONAL! And I love it when they come home safe and sound! Be it every night or not for months on end, I am always happy when they come home ALIVE!

    • Rick I seen the video lets put you in the drivers seat you get out of your patrol unit he walking saying F____ you he has his hands in his pockets you order him to show his hands he does not your draw your weapon because of the posable threat he may have in his hands or pocket he is still walking up on you he says SHOOT ME , SHOOT ME HE IS CHARGING ON YOU NOW. GO A HEAD SHOOT ME WHAT DO YOU DO HE IS 4 FEET FROM YOU SHOOT ME WHAT ARE YOU GOING TO DO. HURRY UP TIME IS ALMOST OUT!!! still has his hands in his pockets cant tell what he has your order him GET ON THE GROUND HE SAYS F__________ YOU!!!!!

      • Rick you are dead he stabbed you in the throat you bled out!! he took the weapon you had in your had and blew your head off !!!!! so were they justified.

  12. Although I wasn’t there, going on the video, and the circumstances( he apparently had just stolen a few sodas, was waiting for the police, was charging them, and had his hand in his pocket) I think the Police WERE justified. It’s a shame that this happened, but the call came in as a man with a knife. He wasn’t acting rationally, and please don’t expect the Police to try and use less lethal tactics on an angry man charging at them who has a hand in his pocket, and was reported to have a knife. Also, if you watch the entire video, you can clearly hear a bystander say “he HAD a knife”. Even if he didn’t, you can’t expect the Police to try and guess what an angry man, that just robbed a store, reported to have a knife, and is charging at them, yelling shoot me, is going to do! UPDATE! I just saw this in H.D. on a big T.V. on the news! I can clearly see a large knife in his right hand! Why would someone do this? Was he suicidal, and wanted to be a “martyr”. He just put his family, the Police officers, their families, friends, witnesses, and fired up this whole country putting the Police, and the public in MORE danger!

  13. I don’t like cops never did and I don’t owe them anymore or less respect than they give me. Ego maniacs that were beaten up in high school overcompensating for there in adequacies in life that’s the definition of a “Police Officer”
    Good luck out there your going to need it.

      • Because that’s what your PAID TO DO , ITS YOUR JOB ! You choses that profession “Protect and serve”
        If its too much for you do something else. I wish my opinion was wrong but from most of my encounters with police officers its the same smart mouth cocky arrogant machismo attitude. I have always been a law abiding citizen never been in trouble with the law and raised my children the same way. Maybe its just my bad luck to run into just a bunch of knuckle heads . God bless you to ptl John

      • I’m betting Chris Gonzalez is a prick to every cop before the cop has a chance to engage in any kind of conversation. I have had many instances where I have had dealings with Law Enforcement, and I have NEVER had a bad situation, EVEN THOUGH I CARRY A FIREARM. I have been stopped in Texas with my .45 in plain view and all the State Trooper did was ask if I had a permit. I was at a car show on Native American land in Arizona and an Officer approached me smiling and let me know that I was not really legal to carry it where I was. I have had them come to my door because a dumbass neighbor complained about noise (apartment downstairs) and I was wearing my .45 when I answered the door, and nothing was ever said even when I invited them in.

        And Chris, you are wrong, they are NOT paid to PROTECT your ass. It’s not “bad luck” it’s YOUR bad attitude when you meet them.

  14. Any encounter with an officer includes a weapon……the officer’s weapon. If “knocked out” the suspect is armed. Law Enforcement Officers die too often by their own gun after taken away by an unarmed suspect!

  15. An armed professional or responsible armed citizen does not shoot to kill, he or she shoots to live. Deadly force is used to protect oneself or a third party to prevent great bodily harm or death. There are many factors involved in the totality of circumstances in the use of deadly force. Size, experience, age, physical ability, sex, ability to use an alternative measure (or not), and perception of immediate physical harm are all factors involved.

    Many think that an attacker must be using a firearm in order for you to shoot that attacker. Wrong, a person could use their fists to beat you to death. A strong or trained attacker could be deadly without a firearm. As far as weapons go, anything can be used as a weapon. Edged weapons are far more dangerous at contact distance than firearms. A woman, in most cases, would be justified in using a firearm when defending herself, way before most men would.

    The decision to use force may happen in milliseconds, but everyone else has unlimited time to overanalyze, criticize, and overthink the actions taken.

    To those that have never been in a deadly force confrontation, I hope you never are involved in one, but don’t think you know what it’s like. Surely do not share an uneducated and untrained opinion.

    – A twenty two year veteran Federal and State Law Enforcement instructor specializing in use of force, but you don’t have to take my word for it.

  16. I think a lot of you are over analyzing the situation. Simply put, we do not have all the facts on this situation. If he assaulted the officer then yes, the officer had every right to protect himself with lethal force. I have been in life threatening confrontations and was forced to defend myself and let me tell you, you have NO CLUE how you would react until you have to. Now I am not siding with the police because there are a lot of officers who abuse there power and should never be in possession of a firearm to begin with. When the average of police related killings is several thousand a year, its hard to trust the judgement of someone wearing a badge. But there ARE those who do their job responsibly and deserve our respect. So until I see the videos, I’m reserving my judgement. The rest of you should do the same.

  17. Why hold law enforcement to a lower standard….if someone is intent on going after someone who is obviously armed their intentions have to be taken as deadly. You threaten someone with a weapon and they ignor it they are intending to use deadly force to do one of two things….take you out or remove the weapon and use it against you.

  18. No one is saying that unarmed people should NEVER be met with lethal force. this entire article is predicated on a strawman fallacy. Congratulations.

    As a member of the military, I know the ROE for using lethal force. If an assailant is unarmed and fleeing, I don’t use it. If someone is listening to their headphones and doesn’t hear my orders, I don’t empty my magazine into them. If someone won’t stop selling cigarettes, I don’t fucking choke them to death.

    If this shit happened in another first world nation, there’d be a shit storm. But in America, it’s just business as usual.

    • I think you are reading more into the article than exists. The premise of the article is that, yes, sometimes shooting an unarmed person is justified. At no time does it state that police are always right or that avoidable amd tragic situations do not occur.

      P.s. Mike Brown was not fleeing and shot in the back.

      The officer who choked the guy selling illegal cigarettes will most likely be punished. I did not support that use of force. I believe that was a case of someone trying out the new MMA moves they learned at the gym and he went too far.

      As a former soldier myself, and one who used to teach ROE to troops in-country, I understand your point. But, the current ROE were not always the ROE. It used to be within ROE to shoot a person filming U.S. troops or pulling lookout for the Taliban. No longer.

    • There is no roe in law enforcement so congrats. Additionally the references you site are old or the officer has been charged locally or federally for using unlawful force. I’ll be impressed if you can tell me what amendment use of force falls under. Additionally should I throw at you the unjustified and illegal killings that have happened in Vietnam, Iraq and Afghanistan? No cause you wouldn’t care your a super stud blue falcon. Unlike the military we don’t have an acceptable amount of collateral damage. Only in the military can we lay hundreds of rounds of suppressive fire into a building and when the bad guy is the only one to live through the barrage and all the innocents die simple say, oops that sucks. Military skill sets lend themselves to LE work and vice versa but they are not the same. Many parallels but different.

    • Iceland’s citizens also aren’t huge pieces of crap like citizens of ALL RACES in our country. Plus, we outnumber them by a ridiculous amount.

    • If you’ve ever lived in Iceland you’d know why. No murders, no rape, no gangs, almost zero theft. A homogeneous society of less than 275,000. My family is a LEO family there. They experience almost NOTHING like we do here. To compare the two is downright stupid.

  19. I made it half way through these comments and wondered does anyone have a clue?!?! Even from my fellow LEO’s I have not seen one reference to the reasonableness 3 prong test set for forth in graham v Connor or just prudence again in Tennessee V garner. These are SCOTUS cases that were decided by people much smarter than me on the legal use of force. The formula is all spelled out but in a world of instant gratification and satisfaction no one bothers to research a well articulated response. Instead we argue with emotions and try to justify our reasonable, prudent and lawful use of force to people who can barely spell “reasonable”. Perhaps if someone was to seek formal training on articulation and use of force as cops have then they too would have a better time explaining their use of force instead of stupid general comments with no quantifiable basis that “if I did that id be arrested but cops go free.” Education WILL set you free.
    To my military brethren (yes I’ve done time in southern afghan as an 11 bang and city streets as LEO) just stop complaining over comparisons because you sound just as misguided as those that ask why we couldn’t shoot them in the leg or Kung fu him back.

  20. It’s amazing that police officers all throughout Europe aren’t extinct from being beaten to death! Those French cops with their sugary coffee must be tougher men than American police officers. You mention this 2 thousand pounds of force 220lbs Couture generated, yet mentioned the reason pros don’t get killed from those blows is because they know how to avoid those blows. Yet you failed to mention your average 300lbs man probably can’t generate the forces freakin’ Randy can because HE is a trained fighter!

    I expect a citizen to be able to defend themselves with lethal force in a fight. I expect a police officer to be held to higher standards because every police officer is a trained fighter with a baton, pepper spray, and a taser. Again, it’s amazing unarmed police in Europe make it home every night, but in this country shooting unarmed men is common.

    • Curtis…..I am 5’8″ and approximately 185 pounds. If a man the size of Brown punches my in the face…..god forbid….with full force there is no possible way I will be able to defend my firearm. I am very highly trained but sometimes, unfortunately, shit happens. If someone attacks me or any the police officer they only have one thing on their mind….and that’s to cause serious physical injury or death. I will do whatever it takes to go home to my family.

      • So, basically…you’re saying U.K. cops are that much better than you you need a gun and they don’t? Maybe it’s because they’re smarter and wait for backup when they’re out matched? Officer Wilson would’ve ran away crying hiding in his car if he had no gun. With a gun on his hip he was a tough guy. Why? Because he knew whatever the problem his Glock 22 would be the crutch he could lean on.

    • The fact is that the best predictor of crime in a community is the number of blacks living there. European countries don’t have large numbers of blacks therefore they don’t have the same level of crime as the US. You can, and will, call me names for writing this but it’s a fact. Look it up.

      • You’re a fucking idiot moron. You embarrass all human beings by breathing. Please die so we don’t have to continue to apologize for your idiot racist ass.

  21. I’ve been a cop for 10 years. I’ve had to take a life. It plain ass sucks. My attacker was my size. He was unarmed. He was on PCP. He was a white guy so no one gave a damn. I didn’t shoot him, my gun side was pinned against the ground. I used my hands and rocked his gourd to the point he had a brain bleed and died in route. He had no quit in him. I had facial reconstruction as a result. The only thing that saved my ass was my will to get home to my wife and kids. And as far as the other options on my belt, I tased the guy about 3 seconds before he got his hands on me. So, if you want to Monday morning quarterback a cop, politely go fuck yourself. We have enough shit from our bosses and colleagues who are getting paid to do it.

    • So, you were pinned on the ground and hit him hard enough to kill him…from the bottom…while pinned? Cool story bro.

    • I don’t believe your bosses and colleagues are a unbiased source to judge your actions in a shooting. You will be scrutinized for taking a life by people who were not there if you are anyone else. Being a cop does not give you a pass from taking responsibility for your actions. You are a public servant not an invading military force and are responsible to those you protect. If you don’t think so you need to find another job.

  22. You all are sick and deluded. Ross-Elder, I have no idea who you are–and after reading this brainless barf-fest I’m going back to not knowing. May you get to live forever in your paranoid, deluded bliss. I don’t think you have it in you to deal with reality.

  23. What an ignorant premise. “You also have no idea if your attacker IS armed and they just haven’t used their weapon yet. ” So shoot first and find out later? I have a CCW and people like you should not have one . If you are so paranoid that you actually follow that premise and can’t wait to fire before finding out if the threat is an actual one you have no business carrying a firearm. Nothing you wrote makes any sense in the Ferguson discussion anyway. The man had his hands in the air by dozens of independent accounts all with the same story. The only one with a different account is the police officer.

  24. I’m confused at the comments from my military brothers who are upset that we, officers, use comparisons between military and police…. I have served both in my lifetime and understand the similarities. I am extremely grateful to those who served our country, serve our country now, and especially those who gave the ultimate sacrifice of their lives… But to say that there are no similarities is a fallacy. 911, Boston Marathon, the infamous bank robbery in California, the looting and burning of California due to the Rodney King scenario…to name a few…I have used the same types of tactics in my career as those I was taught in the military… And to say that we get to sleep in our own bed all comfortable and safe is true, as it is for you when you are home, thanks to the LEO community who are patrolling the streets while we sleep. Now, I would never take away from the traumas that combat gives, but I also understand the traumas of twenty or more years of daily ” public aggression, violent death, violent offenders, public threats, etc. can have on officers who protect the home front daily.

    It is unfortunate that people who do not, or could not, walk in LEO shoes judge so harshly as if they have the right… Get informed, go on a ride along and see it first hand, then we will see what you have to say…

  25. So, the news is out. Wilson is before a grand jury. All 5 witnesses, only 2 of which know each other say Brown turned around hands up, explaining he was unarmed and shooting “OK OK” at which point officer Wilson shot him several times.

    Witnesses who were closer also say Wilson pulled BROWN into the window after hitting him with the car door and Brown was simply struggling to pull himself back. While pulling back, officer Wilson shot him, and fired a couple of shots while chasing Brown. Sounds like the guy you fellas are taking up for so hard is a hot headed murderer.

  26. Just another entitled asshole spouting off random bullshit. I’m going to summarily dismantle your arguments as follows:

    1. You’re absolutely right. Police have the right to protect themselves. The issue is, they should also have the training to minimize putting themselves in harm’s way. Most of the time, there is AMPLE time (and distance) for LTL (Less Than Lethal) measures to be taken, but none are; It’s just 8 shots to the face from 20 feet away. Nope, not buying it.

    2. Your brazen overlooking of footage that has found the officers’ testimonies false — or at the very least, highly edited — is also hilariously ironic. Guess the truth doesn’t mean much to you? Rembmer – Dead men tell no tales…

    It’s pretty ridiculous to go from one extreme to the other. There are *many* LTL options cops can employ, ESPECIALLY if they know beforehand that there is a disturbance or issue that they are responding to. I’d never in a million years blame a cop for protecting himself, but the latest slew of shootings doesn’t boost my confidence in police forces.

    • Joel Hager you are clueless. You need to appreciate that officers put their life on the line every day they put on a uniform. Remember the officers that were shot dead early in the morning at that coffee shop before they could even stand up. They are judged by people like you who don’t appreciate or deserve the freedom they protect.

    • I will assume you are addressing me, so I will reply directly. First, I’m not sure where the entitled part comes in, but you aren’t the first to call me an asshole. Impressive it is not.

      I wrote this article the day this shooting happened and no video was available of the ferguson incident at that time. But, since you bring up video, did you see the one where the eye witnesses are making statements that DIRECTLY support what the police officer said? Or, are you neglecting that one? Where is this experience of yours that clearly defines that there is always ample time to employ LTL measures? Ferguson doesn’t even have dashcams, a norm for most serious departments. What makes you think he has LTL weapons in his possession at the time he encountered Brown? What’s that? Oh, you don’t know? Exactly. So, unless you are an officer on the Ferguson PD and know for a fact that what you say is true, you should probably go back to discussing something you actually understand.

  27. This whole devil’s advocate thing is insane. I don’t care if you are a “regular” citizen or a cop, if someone who has just previously attacked you and/or stolen something is heading at you in full force, you have no time to think…you just take them down in order to save yourself. This, that, or the other…shoot in the leg, taze in the arm…blah, blah, blah…if someone who is an obvious threat is heading towards you, you aren’t able to pause the moment “Mission Impossible” style and think about your options, you do what you need to do to save yourself and others.

  28. This article is pretty much implicitly stating that police shouldn’t be held responsible. There are ways to take down a criminal that doesn’t kill them, without shooting.

    There are even ways to shoot a criminal and not kill them… by not firing in to their body more than once or twice.

    If you’re a cop, and you have this attitude of shooting people, don’t be surprised when someone shoots you dead. People are starting to realize that there’s a domestic occupation and you’re outgunned despite the security industry setting up false flags and false wars to make a profit from and then selling the weapons to the police force to make more profit.

    Everyone has a right to protect themselves, especially from fascist cops.

    • Nowhere in this article will you find any reference to police not being held responsible for their actions. Not one. And, if you read much of my other articles, or follow me on Facebook, you will find that I am incredibly critical of police when they do wrong. There are many instances in which I have called for various police officers to be punished when they have done the wrong thing.

      You also need to read THIS article: to further understand non-lethal shooting scenarios.

  29. I have to say I completely understand that there is controversy over this shooting and some of that reason is because law enforcement falls short in educatingb people of what we do and why. There is good reason for that though and I think if your a concerned citizen it your responsibility to become educated before your mouth runnith over. Before shooting someone cops are training to take into a considerable amount of things in a split moment. I will walk through some of those thing to help tou understand. First, whats the call? The officerhas probably received a limited amount of information because the diapatch center is putting it out as they get information, but most important is to get officers rolling as quick as possible to help prevent loss of life or property. So in this case I believe the call was a robbery. You all know the call right you have seen them on the cop shows where a suspect takes something thats not his and sometimes that happens with force and or with a weapon (who knows). Which bring me to the second thing the officer is responding and reciting the worst case scenario because his life depends on it. As he get closer his fight or flight scenes are peeking. As he is in the area he is getting more information possibly a description who knows. There tons of thing to think about, like should i wait to pull my firearm and if I do what happens if the robbers have guns and now I am reacting to a threat that has an upper hand. He is also probably wondering if there is anyone hurt or being hurt. Where his backup and if they will be there if the shit hits the fan. He is also thinking about a perimeter. Then once he locates the suspect (s) he has to take into consideration location time of day and number of suspects their size their demeanor etc. The once he confronts them by himself he is giving verbal commands because that is how it goes, verbal command, then empty hand custody techniques then if that dont work and the suspect is resistant he goes to strikes and kicks then to his pepper spray if that dont work and if that dont work go tob impact weapons and if that dont work lethal force. Now mind you an officer has to be ahead of the game cause to be behind it could mean his life so if the suspect is threatening him with an ass whooping and there is no gettingbout of it he has to be a level ahead. Then if the officer feels like there no other choices and his life is being threatened he makes that choice to shoot or not. Let me tell you folks this is happening so fast that it can unfold in seconds. Lets just pause for a second cause we can, but ask yourself this to add to the quickly starting action. “Why is this guy or guys not listening to the officer?” Why are they not complying with his commands why are tgey resisting. Do law abiding citizens fight or disregard lawful orders. Do they run, do they punch and of course if they are doing this after being in a robbery are you going to try and raze them spray them or take two of them on. What if you think you see a weapon on him as they are fighting you, hitting you and maybe getting the upper hand. Ok so having all this in mind you have a split second to react. What would you do? Since no of us were its hard to know what really went on but what we should be doing is thinking of ways to help prevent the controversy. Get involved with your local law enforcement find those things that make no sense and address them make your officers understand your frustrations but be willing to hear theirs. It takes a village to mandating work.

  30. The whole thing boils down to lack of respect in society as a whole. We as a society have lost family values, don’t respect our elders and their struggles, place more value on self medicating, fake celebrities and social media than our true military heroes and deserving public servants. As a result, those who serve and protect us are suspect of each and every one of us..aka dirtbags..because we have allowed it and promote it as a new way of life.

    Academy training in some areas is a joke. That gets you through school with a basic book knowledge, not street smarts. When we stopped training for the job at hand and started training new employees to reflect a better balance of the community populace makeup, we lost a great deal of knowledge, experience and options to get the job done. When “sensitivity training” carries more weight than hands on refresher training in the dirt, sweating your ass off in “this is how it’s done” training, we got screwed and so did the public we serve. You asked for it, not us.

    When we all realize that politicians must stop reducing public safety manpower and equipment to balance the budget, or to stop stealing our retirement pensions with the help of Wall Street and our elected “officials”, maybe this will get better. When the proliferation of drugs and easy government handouts subsides and we actually bring jobs back to America that employ legal Americans, we might find a better place to live. Respect will return when you earn a paycheck for real. No we are not all dirtbags in the good ole US of A. But for those of you who are, dirtbags, drug dealers, pedophiles, gang bangers, murderers deadbeats or just show a plain and outright disregard for public safety, your fellow man or God as a whole..too bad. It is what it is.

  31. When you look at Ferguson and the other riots, when you look at the ISIS types perhaps pouring over our open boarders? I think it is reasonable to ‘militarize’ police equipment. Minorities riot over police action, what if it gets worse? Police need to have overwhelming force at their fingertips. I have never been mistreated by a police officer. I have had dozens of contacts with them. I know blacks who have had dozens of contacts with without incident. Cops handle thousands of calls every day with out incident. When one is less than perfect we all go Monday morning quarterbacking on them. I appreciate the Cops and their work. I live in a small city very close to the capitol of NY. Our Cops do great work. not abusive at all.

  32. To the men and women who serve as Police Officers, please understand that the laws that you believe you are protecting are nothing but statutes and “codes” written by attorneys, enforced by judges(who are attorneys) in order to generate revenue for themselves and the state. Once you realize the prison system is a private for profit industry you will realize the fault in your aggressions towards your fellow man. You’re reputations have been tarnished by years and years of believing that you are upholding the law, but in fact you are just a revenue generating machine, writing “tickets(bills)” and creating “bonds(negotiable instruments), by you’re arrests etc. Educate yourselves because everything is in front of your face, open your eyes.

    You have been lied to.

    I, believe the majority of police officers are good human beings and I love you all, the fault is within your training, your training is teaching you to be aggressors first instead of peace officers who have taken an oath to serve and protect the public, and it is this same public you attack and arrest.

    With the looming budget cuts and lay offs we all face I believe now is the time for you to educate yourselves about your budgets and bring your aggressions.

    Police men and women, please begin to help your fellow man, because in the scheme of things we are all part of the same group of men and women who are just trying to do the best we can with the little we have.

    Spread love and compassion and you will receive the same, and in cases of true threats to your life you will see that your love and compassion will come back to save you from any life threatening situation.

  33. People things are not as they seem some times.. here is a video link http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=rM4kyiHSY2w
    Read the story first then watch the video. there is so many people that think cops are just out to cause hate. but watch the video and there is many more video like this one. Everyday police officers put their life on the line to protected yours. yes mishap has happened, but how many officers have been shot and killed when they were arresting a suspect that they thought was unarmed or complying to the commands?

  34. I read this statement from a caller to a radio show :

    In the 31 years I was on the street as a patrol officer, eight of our officers in our state were executed with their own weapons during a struggle with an unarmed suspect. And I think people have to understand, the police understand that even the toughest cop isn’t always gonna win the fit, and one lucky punch and he’s stunned or unconscious and now the bad guy has access to his weapon.

  35. If you are going to justify shooting an unarmed man based on your fear that he may be a professionally trained MMA fighter and its better to kill him just to be sure… then YOU SHOULD NOT BE A COP.

  36. In other news, police in iceland shoot and kill their first citizen ***ever***. Let that sink in for a minute.
    USA cops are trigger happy sociopaths by comparison.

  37. Pingback: » The Yankee Gunner Podcast – 033The Yankee Gunner

  38. This article is complete horse shit. Trayvon wasn’t even killed by a cop… which is who this article is attempting to justify. If you can’t handle a 150lb teenager without deadly force you have no business being in any sort of law enforcement.

    While it’s impossible to know just how many people the police kill each year, because of the broken way it’s reported and categorized… If we take even ONLY the “justifiable homicide” stats which doesn’t include many many many deaths by cop that were not cause for any action, the many swept under the rug cases, and so on and so forth. The cops have killed well over 5000 people since 2001.

    In ALL police deaths since 2001, including accidental.. most being auto accidents and illness 2049 officers died on the job.

    Way more dangerous to be a civilian by those numbers.

    Sure, there are times that a call for force may be necessary for any of us, but this article tries to link random acts of violence on civilians to justify killings in what may or may not be hostile situations where an officer has chosen to interact with a suspect. Not just some guy who comes out of nowhere and starts hitting the cop unprovoked. That’s quite a stretch.

    Then to go on and talk about MMA fighting.. yes, lets talk about that for a moment, how many times have we seen cops just pummeling the shit out of a civilian, how about a random homeless guy… for what? Just because they fucking can, that’s why. Yes, they have most certainly died from it too. Thanks for bringing that up.

    Police all too often escalate situations into extreme violence for no other reason other than the fact that they can get away with it. The people are sick of it, and they’re going to start pushing back.

  39. I don’t want to take anything away from the bravery of our soldiers and police officers, but both have made a conscious decision to place defending the public from death and violence above their own lives.

    Rules of engagement have a purpose; to win not just the immediate confrontation, but to win the peace. Killing an unarmed person is always going to be considered an injustice, and will result in the loss of the public’s respect and willingness to accept the killer as an honest broker of peace and justice. And if the killer is not seen to be dealt justice in return, that taint will stain whatever uniform they happen to be wearing. And that can make all the difference between a civilized community and a war zone. It may not be fair, but it is reality.

    Anybody who does not understand and accept that reality is just as much or an idiot as the people who rush to judgement.

    Using Trayvon Martin as an example here is also telling; it wasn’t a cop that killed Trayvon, it was an untrained wannabe with a gun who blundered into a situation he never should have, that he was even told by the cops not to, that resulted in the conflict that ended in a boy’s death. It was the incompetence of the prosecution in going for a murder charge instead of a lesser charge like manslaughter that left the jury no choice but to acquit. It wasn’t because George Zimmerman was in the right.

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